topic Re: New member needs help in EOS DSLR & Mirrorless Cameras

New member needs help

lurechunker — Sun, 12 Feb 2017 20:39:38 GMT

I am new to the forum and asking for help. Our granddaughter plays basketball and I would like to photograph her. I kayak and would like to photograph birds. Is the EOS 760D the camera for me? Other? What lens or lenses? How can I protect my equipment form damage from saltwater? Thank you.

Re: New member needs help

Waddizzle — Sun, 12 Feb 2017 20:46:02 GMT

Canon sells a fairly robust waterproof camera, PowerShot D30. As for lenses, what is your budget? Lenses can be costly.

The best lens to use to photograph indoor basketball is probably one of Canon's 70-200mm lenses, which assumes that you will be at, or near, court side.. There are other choices, but without knowing your relative location, any advice is pure speculation.

For photographing birds, especially birds in flight, the longer the focal length, the better. A super telephoto zoom lens with a maximum focal length of at least 400-600mm seems to be fairly popular. Beware of using focal length extenders, because there is often a price to pay for the benefit they afford.

Re: New member needs help

jrhoffman75 — Mon, 13 Feb 2017 00:14:51 GMT

My wife has taken her T6s (North American version of 760D) out in her kayak with no problems. She keeps it in a sealed waterproof pouch until it is needed, but we are in calm, inland lakes.

I would recommend you consider an 80D. It is weather sealed and faster all around for sports and BIF. Use a rain cover when shooting, keep a towel nearby and b careful. Saltwater is nasty.

I just started photographing my grandson on the basketball court and concur with the recommendaton of the 70-200mm lens.

Re: New member needs help

Waddizzle — Mon, 13 Feb 2017 02:24:03 GMT

I would emphatically agree with the choice of the 80D. The 80D is a Best Buy, IMHO. I bought one for a relative, and he loves how it connects to his iPhone, He can transfer photos, and remotely control the camera. He's had it for a few months and has just now begun to discover the advanced auto-focus and video capabilities. The 80D is an honest to goodness family camera.

Water can be an especially nasty experience for a camera, and salt water is most particularly nasty. I still recommend the inexpensive D30 in a small boat, in which you cannot or should not stand up. Just because a camera body is declared to be "weather sealed" does not mean that it is "weather-proof." In most cases, "weather sealed" means somewhat dust and water resistant, and only then for a short period of time, usually just long enough to wipe off drops of water if it gets splashed.

Photographing birds reminds me of fishing. It takes just as much luck as it does skill. In my book, consistent luck is more properly known as skill. Birding takes practice, and like fishing, requires some knowledge of the habits of your "prey". You should figure on needing a fairly robust tripod for birding. It ain't easy. Like fishing, it takes patience and perseverance.

Re: New member needs help

ebiggs1 — Mon, 13 Feb 2017 15:16:46 GMT

"Is the EOS 760D the camera for me?"

No, it's not. I agree the 80D is a better choice. They 7D Mk II is even a better choice than the 80D.

"What lens or lenses?" "... granddaughter plays basketbal ..."

I also agree with the idea of the EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM Lens. However, depending on where you shot from, the most important part of shooting a granddaughter's basketball game, the EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM Lens may be too long. In that case add the EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II USM Lens. You will need a more 'normal' lens anyway. Not gonna be cheap but she does this just once! Right?

"... would like to photograph birds."

You want the EF 400mm f/5.6L USM Lens. If you consider price, this is the best 400mm lens made. Period. Also, it will be much easier to protect at the ocean.

"How can I protect my equipment form damage from saltwater?"

You probably can't ! I did say it wasn't gonna be cheap so you were warned. Salt water is a death sentence. But there are precautions you can take to lessen the danger. Remember even the sea mist is bad. Not just the water and time will take its toll. Sand is also bad for cameras. Key advice is, use common sense.

I have found myself in the enviable position, depending upon your opinion, of doing several shoots at the ocean. I use large zip lock bags.

First all your lenses will need protective filters. No debate, this is a requirement. Cut a hole in the freezer zip lock bag and tape the filter in place.

Trace the filter with a permanent marker and cut out the hole so it's a bit smaller than the diameter of the filter. Then put the filter inside the bag and push the hole in the bag down over the filter so that the bag has to stretch a bit to fit around the filter. Use a strip of electrical tape to secure it.

Normally I offer people a secondary choice of lenses. But the part about shooting in a salt water environment limits what is a good alternative. I see none as the third world lenses are not very weather sealed. And, I stress all your lenses will require a protective filter on them. Not debatable!

Re: New member needs help

TCampbell — Mon, 13 Feb 2017 16:54:36 GMT

Action photography such as basketball, and if by "birds" you really mean "birds in flight" then the 80D or 7D II would be better options.

The 7D II is a semi-pro category camera optimized for action photography but I should caution you that it's a somewhat "technical" camera. If you opt for that choice (and it would be *the* ideal choice) you would need to take the time to go through the manual and really learn to use it before you would start to get the benefits of it.

The 80D is a mid-level advanced / pro-sumer category camera (not entry level, but also not pro nor semi-pro). It's not quite as technical of an instrument as the 7D II.

But that's just the camera and the sort of photography you're asking about also relies heavily on lens selection.

The difficulty with basketball is that it's typical indoor and in poor lighting (and you generally cannot use flash). This means you want a lens that can gather a lot of light. In other words, imagine if the diameter of the lens is physically larger so that more light can pass thorugh the lens when you take a shot (meaning you don't have to leave the shutter open as long and can take faster "action" shots.)

The indicator that you look for is the focal ratio. This is simply the focal length of the lens, divide by it's wides possible diameter of clear aperture. So if you had a lens that has a 100mm long focal length but it's aperture opens up to a 25mm wide aperture then that lens is an "f/4" lens because 100 ÷ 25 = 4. Now imagine that instead of having a 25mm diameter opening in the lens, that the lens was so large that it had a 50mm diameter opening... that would be an f/2 lens because 100 ÷ 50 = 2 (we call that an f/2 lens). So you can see how the larger diameter opening causes the focal ratio value to be smaller. When you're trying to gather light in a hurry... the lower the focal ratio value... the better.

One other piece of info... when the diameter of a circle increases by 1.4x then the area of that circle is doubled. (technically the real value is the square root of 2 ... an irrational number 1.41421... but we simply round that to 1.4 in photography because anything past the the 1.4 isn't enough of a difference to substantially change your exposure in any noticeable way.

So f/2.8 literally collects DOUBLE the light of an f/4 lens. An f/4 lens collects double the light of an f/5.6 lens. That means an f/2.8 lens collects QUADRUPLE the light of an f/5.6 lens and that makes a very noticeable difference.

The EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM is probably the preferred lens for the indoor shooting because the f/2.8 focal ratio is low and it can provide that focal ratio at any zoom length.

A typical inexpensive zoom such as a 70-300mm is a "variable focal ratio" f/4-5.6 which means it can provide f/4 only at the 70mm end, and as you zoom in the focal ratio increases and by the time you reach 200mm it is already at f/5.6. So while the focal length range may be nice, the ability to collect light isn't so nice (and if you don't have the light you have to use slower exposures or crank up the ISO and you end up with "noisy" shots and/or shots with a lot of motion-blur.

That covers the indoor action sports. For outdoors things get a little easier. It isn't that the birds in flight require fast shutter speeds... you're outdoors. There's a LOT more light. Using an f/5.6 focal ratio really isn't a problem.

Birders tend to prefer lenses that can zoom up to about 600mm. Both Sigma and Tamron make a 150-600mm zoom lens that makes birders very happy (Sigma actually makes two... one costs noticeably more but is slightly higher performing.) These are f/5-6.3 variable focal ratio lenses. So while the focal ratio doesn't sound as nice, it's no longer the factor we're worried about becuase we usually have an abundance of light when shooting outdoors. Canon does not make a lens that directly matches to these... their closest is the Canon EF 100-400mm f/4-5.6L IS II USM. On a Canon EOS 7D Mk II camera, that lens can be paired with a Canon EF 1.4x Extender which brings it up to 140-560mm (so it's pretty close.)

Both the 80D and the 7D Mk II are "weather sealed" camera bodies... meaning Canon put o-rings on all dials and they put gaskets on buttons and body seams. The 7D has a little bit better weather-sealing treatment than the 80D. Weather sealing means the camera is designed to keep out dust or water if that water is things like rain or splashes. These cameras are NOT water-proof (they must NOT be submerged underwater.) Also, while these cameras happen to be weather sealed, most lenses are NOT weather-sealed. Canon makes several of their "L" series lenses that have weather sealing. The EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM is weather sealed. Also Canon's 100-400mm f/4-5.6L IS II USM is weather sealed. You can generally tell if the lens is weather sealed because it will have a silicone gasket that creates a seal when the lens is attached to the camera body (most lenses don't have that.)

If you have weather-sealed gear and it gets wet, make sure you still towel dry the gear before removing the lens, etc. You don't want any drips entering the camera when you remove the lens.

I would get a waterproof "dry bag". LowePro (a major brand in camera bags) makes a "DryZone" series of bags that are all waterproof. If you decide to roll the kayak and the camera is in the bag, it'll be fine.

Re: New member needs help

Waddizzle — Mon, 13 Feb 2017 19:16:20 GMT

Amidst all of the warnings, cautions, and suggestions on how to protect your camera and lens from water, one basic layer of protection has been overlooked. You will need a protective filter on any lens that would be exposed to harsh conditions.

If you are new to DSLRs, I still say the simplest and safest solution to protect your DSLR is use a PowerShot D30 waterproof camera.

Re: New member needs help

TCampbell — Mon, 13 Feb 2017 19:51:40 GMT

@Waddizzle wrote:
Amidst all of the warnings, cautions, and suggestions on how to protect your camera and lens from water, one basic layer of protection has been overlooked. You will need a protective filter on any lens that would be exposed to harsh conditions.

If you are new to DSLRs, I still say the simplest and safest solution to protect your DSLR is use a PowerShot D30 waterproof camera.

The major caveat with the PowerShot D30 is that you can swap lenses. It's a waterproof point & shoot. The built-in lens has a 35mm equivalent focal length of only 140mm. An APS-C DSLR with a 600mm lens has a 35mm equivalent of 960mm. Since the use case for the desired camera was to do some bird photography from the kayak, the 140mm focal length on the D30 would be like using an 88mm lens on an 80D or 7D II.

I think you're right on the waterproofing being a nice feature -- but I suspect the focal length limitation would be inadequate for bird photography.

Re: New member needs help

Waddizzle — Mon, 13 Feb 2017 20:45:33 GMT

@TCampbell wrote:
@Waddizzle wrote:
Amidst all of the warnings, cautions, and suggestions on how to protect your camera and lens from water, one basic layer of protection has been overlooked. You will need a protective filter on any lens that would be exposed to harsh conditions.

If you are new to DSLRs, I still say the simplest and safest solution to protect your DSLR is use a PowerShot D30 waterproof camera.
The major caveat with the PowerShot D30 is that you can swap lenses. It's a waterproof point & shoot. The built-in lens has a 35mm equivalent focal length of only 140mm. An APS-C DSLR with a 600mm lens has a 35mm equivalent of 960mm. Since the use case for the desired camera was to do some bird photography from the kayak, the 140mm focal length on the D30 would be like using an 88mm lens on an 80D or 7D II.

I think you're right on the waterproofing being a nice feature -- but I suspect the focal length limitation would be inadequate for bird photography.

If my remarks came across as using the D30 for birding, then that was unintentional. I think the best solution is the 80D and the D30.

Re: New member needs help

ebiggs1 — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 16:43:07 GMT

"Birders tend to prefer lenses that can zoom up to about 600mm. Both Sigma and Tamron make a 150-600mm zoom lens that makes birders very happy (Sigma actually makes two... one costs noticeably more but is slightly higher performing.)"

Normally I would agree with this but the OP mentioned "salt water'. If the BIF are the ones that habitat that area, the big zooms are going to be a hand full. Difficult to protect. The 400 f5.6L prime is a way better choice in that case.

Re: New member needs help

ebiggs1 — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 16:44:35 GMT

"I think the best solution is the 80D and the D30."

The "best" solution is the 7D Mk II. The others are a compromise that can work.

Re: New member needs help

Waddizzle — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 19:00:29 GMT

@ebiggs1 wrote:
"I think the best solution is the 80D and the D30."

The "best" solution is the 7D Mk II. The others are a compromise that can work.

That's the best solution for an experienced user, but not for someone new to DSLRs.

Re: New member needs help

TCampbell — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 20:33:43 GMT

@Waddizzle wrote:
@ebiggs1 wrote:
"I think the best solution is the 80D and the D30."

The "best" solution is the 7D Mk II. The others are a compromise that can work.
That's the best solution for an experienced user, but not for someone new to DSLRs.

While there are many differences and overall the 7D II is more of a technical (semi-pro) camera for experienced shooters, I think the most significant difference is that the 7D II has a very advanced focus system. Someone purchasing that camera to exploit it's superior action-photography capabilities would need to be willing to invest the time to learn about the focus system, how to select focus points, how to change AF point modes & zones, and how to change focus mode behaviors. If you invest the time to do this, then it will pay off because ultimately it offers more control in those areas.

It's not difficult *if* you are willing to invest the time to learn and practice.

If a person is not interested in investing the time, then the equipment will not magically produce better results on it's own.

Of course this applies to most DSLRs... they are capable of outperforming point & shoot cameras and phones, but without some knowledge of using exposure controls to influence the look of the shots, you wont necessarily get better looking images just because you have a DSLR.

Re: New member needs help

John_SD — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 21:19:22 GMT

As a beginner, I am finding this is an interesting thread. It isn't lost on me that the OP posted her query in the EOS Rebel section of the site. I assume the lady is a beginner, based on her questions. I don't know why an entry level DSLR isn't being recommended to her. As a beginner myself, I have seen and known too many of my compatriots read a few articles and then come in to the hobby with the mindset of "I need, I want, I must have...".

A month or two later, their expensive enthusiast gear is being sold on Craigslist or sitting in a closet collecting dust. Why? Too much camera, too soon.

She mentioned two interests. Taking photos of her granddaughter playing basketball and shooting birds. This can't be done on a T6?

I decided early on, that I wanted an entry level DSLR to learn photography on. Bought my refurbished T6 kit here on the Canon site and have been very pleased. It has exceeded my expectations. I literally learn something new each and every time I shoot. Don't need a 7D, 80D, or expensive glass for that.

I came in to the hobby with a range of interests. I shoot often. Over the past couple weeks, I've shot at tidepools, forests, a graveyard, parks, did a little street photography (yes, with a T6), and soon the desert. Once I am completely comfortable with the basics of general DSLR camera concepts and use, and am able to consistently produce good shots, then I have no doubt that I will move on to something better. Till then, I'm quite pleased with my purchase. YMMV.

Re: New member needs help

jrhoffman75 — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 21:34:17 GMT

Hi John_SD.

The big issue for the OP is the fact that the desire involed kayak use in salt water setting. The likelihood of damage to the equipment is great in those conditions, which is why I recommended the weathersealed 80D. One errant wave can destroy the T6s; for the price of less than two T6s bodies the weathersealed body is available.

Re: New member needs help

John_SD — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 21:42:02 GMT

@jrhoffman75 wrote:

One errant wave can destroy the T6s; for the price of less than two T6s bodies the weathersealed body is available.

I'm sure you're right. The lady hasn't posted follow-up questions since her initial query, so it may all be moot at this point anyway. Or maybe she has made her purchase and moved on.

Re: New member needs help

lurechunker — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 22:51:48 GMT

It looks like I will need two cameras, one for kayaking and one for birding. Need to keep the cost down until ai find out if this is the hobby for me. Thanks for the answers.

Re: New member needs help

Waddizzle — Wed, 15 Feb 2017 01:15:12 GMT

@lurechunker wrote:
It looks like I will need two cameras, one for kayaking and one for birding. Need to keep the cost down until ai find out if this is the hobby for me. Thanks for the answers.

Of course, I agree. The current series of Rebel camera bodies are not as robust as they were in the past. The T6 is truly an entry level camera. Except for sensor resolution and limited Wi-Fi features, the T6 is not very different from a T1i. But, a T6 is not as well built as a T1i, IMHO.

None of the current Rebel bodies are as well built as a T1i. If you can find a new 70D, then go for that. The 80D is truly a family camera, with video capabilities that are state of the art. The 80D is pretty good in low light, and seems to be underrated. In fact, I think it performs as least as well in low light as the 7D2, if not better. The 80D produces images with noise levels that are surprisingly low, which makes it great for video with inexpensive lenses.

The T6s and T6i are not as well built, and lack the focusing system of the 80D. The T6 offers even less than its' big brothers. current Rebel bodies can take good pictures, but handle them with care. Keep them away from dust and water. Beware of smoke at the backyard BBQ with a Rebel.

Re: New member needs help

Waddizzle — Wed, 15 Feb 2017 01:29:51 GMT

@lurechunker wrote:
It looks like I will need two cameras, one for kayaking and one for birding. Need to keep the cost down until ai find out if this is the hobby for me. Thanks for the answers.

I will be brutally honest with you. Birding can be an expensive hobby. Period. If you wish to shoot birds in the wild, then you will need a lens with a focal length of at least 400mm to 600mm. Those lenses are not cheap.

You can get shots of birds with budget lenses, but you will need to be so close that you will likely disturb the birds. Of course, it helps to get lucky from time to time.

Tracking birds in flight, is a practiced skill. Lots of practice. Having a camera body with many Auto-Focus tracking points is a BIG assist. The 80D has 45 AF points. The Rebel bodies have only 9, and do not track a subject in motion very well, if at all.

Lenses are MUCH better today than when the T1i was released, even the budget lenses. But, the high performance lenses can produce truly breath taking images when used with camera bodies with high performance AF systems..

Re: New member needs help

TCampbell — Wed, 15 Feb 2017 03:05:24 GMT

@lurechunker wrote:
It looks like I will need two cameras, one for kayaking and one for birding. Need to keep the cost down until ai find out if this is the hobby for me. Thanks for the answers.

"Need" is a strong word. Several years ago, I recall someone's wife (I don't think it was on this forum) who stated that she was looking for a camera and lens for her husband who declared "you see that bird? I want a camera that can take a photo of that bird with up-close detail with me having to step out of my car." I responded that "you're in luck! B&H Photo has a used copy of the Canon EF 1200mm f/5.6 USM lens... and it's only $130,000.00

If you have the resources and are willing to part with the money, the options are staggering.

If you want to take photos of non-moving subjects in the middle of a bright day...any camera will do this and get fantastic results.

What separates DSLRs from point & shoots is the level of control you have. By changing lenses you can generally select a lens with a very low focal ratio -- and this produces a deliberately shallow depth of field such that you get a tack-sharp subject with a gorgeously blurred background and the contrast in focus really helps the subject pop. You can't do that with a camera phone or a point & shoot camera. You can control all aspects of the exposure which allows for a more creative result.

Scott Kelby did a seminar in which he (jokingly) mentions that if you want to get into action photography, you'll need a suitcase full of money to start. This is an area where you need particularly long focal length lenses with very low focal ratios and technical cameras with advanced focusing systems that have staggeringly fast frame rates when shooting bursts of continuous shots. That level of performance means you're basically looking for top-end gear.

Can you capture fantastic sports & action photos with an entry level camera? Absolutely you can... but your "keeper ratio" will be lower. The higher end gear will get you a higher keeper ratio. The trick with birds, however, is they may be shy. Depending on the bird, you may not be able to get within a hundred yards of them. Other birds may allow you to get within just a few feet.

The EOS "Rebel" line are the entry series cameras where a body + lens combination will generally cost less than $1000.

"Today", I own several camera bodies and a number of top-end lenses... but I didn't just buy it all at once. I've been slowly accumulating gears, as budget allowed, over many years. When you buy a point & shoot, you're buying a "camera" and it will never be more than it was on the day of original purchase. When you buy a DSLR, you're just buying into the foundation of a "camera system" and you'll be able to acquire more lenses, lighting, and other accessories, and even upgrade the body ... all over time.