topic Re: Second Camera in EOS DSLR & Mirrorless Cameras

Second Camera

ScottS — Sun, 26 Aug 2018 01:18:01 GMT

It has been quite awhile since I have posted on the Canon Forum. Much has happened since I last did.

I own a Canon 6D and a 40D (yes, it is still going!) I love my 6D. With it are a handful of quality lenses:

Canon 135mm f/2 (Just purchased in May and LOVE it!)

Canon 85mm f/1.8

Canon 24-105mm f/4

Canon 16-35mm f/4

Canon 50mm /f1.8

I recently did my very first Senior Portrait shoot, and it went great! The student (one of my former band students) was amazing and we got a bunch of great pics.

My question now is this: with that limited focusing of the 6D (great for low light nothing moving), but not so great quick AF, I am considering a 5D Mark III or IV.

However....like for everyone $$$

I'm considering going the other way: the Canon 77D. I know that is a crop sensor, APS-C camera. But the AF sounds amazing. Truly would like to go "up" rather than "crop" (not "down," I know, but the IQ and the light gathering of FF really makes me happy)

So I am open to input on those who own two FF vs. one FF and a solid APS-C, like the 77D or the 80D. I know that money would be easier going "down" in price. But in the long term...

Thanks for your thoughts!

Sincerely,

Scott S

Re: Second Camera

lly3988 — Sun, 26 Aug 2018 01:34:11 GMT

Have you consider waiting for a while ?

Canon will announce full frame mirrorless soon.

Re: Second Camera

ScottS — Sun, 26 Aug 2018 01:39:25 GMT

Thanks for your response, lly!

Are you familiar with mirrorless? I've read about them, and know one person who owns one, but not much else.

Is the IQ there with the Full Frames?

Thanks for sharing this thought!

Scott S

Re: Second Camera

shadowsports — Sun, 26 Aug 2018 02:30:55 GMT

ScottS,

If you are considering APS-C, an 80D is the only way to go.

Then again, I agree with the wait and see whats coming from Canon.

Its possible the 5D4 will drop in price once Canon releases its first mirrorless. Might not be dramatic, but will be some I'm sure.

I'd hang tight. But thats just me.

Re: Second Camera

RobertTheFat — Sun, 26 Aug 2018 03:01:59 GMT

@shadowsports wrote:
ScottS,
If you are considering APS-C, an 80D is the only way to go.

Then again, I agree with the wait and see whats coming from Canon.

Its possible the 5D4 will drop in price once Canon releases its first mirrorless. Might not be dramatic, but will be some I'm sure.

I'd hang tight. But thats just me.

The FF mirrorless may also produce a glut of refurbished 5D3's.

In answer to your original question, I'll cast a vote for going with a second FF camera. Canon's EF lenses are offered in focal lengths that generally fit better with FF than with APS-C cameras. And the FF cameras' better low-light performance also argues in their favor.

Full disclosure: Earlier this year I bought a 5D4 to go with my 4-year-old 5D3, completing my transition to FF. I still have one 7D, which my wife and I share as a backup camera. (Her main camera is a 7D Mark II.) I gave my other 7D to my daughter.

Re: Second Camera

Tronhard — Sun, 26 Aug 2018 05:00:33 GMT

I have quite a bit of gear, including the 5DIII, 7D, 7DII, 80D, M5 (MILC). I got the EOS M5 (which it is touted has a performance roughtly equivalent to 80D) simply because I was injured and could not carry anything serious for a long period. While I like the M5 for what it is I also must say that it has its own mount (EF-M) so you would have to buy EF-M lenses unless you choose to use the adaptor with the M5 for your EF lenses. Personally I think that unbalances the light body with the bulkier, heavier lens+adaptor combination, so you may as well go with the 80D if you want an APS-C body. One other thought... strong rumour has it that there is a 7DIII coming out in September. If that is so you may expect a flurry of used 7DII's on the market. It is a great camera, and is weather and dust resistant, but the 80D is a newer model.

Re: Second Camera

Waddizzle — Sun, 26 Aug 2018 09:29:00 GMT

The 5D3 and 5D4 are good choices, but you want to know what else is out there. The 5D Series are all around workhorses. The 7D2 almost falls into that category, too, but it is better suited for action photographers than wedding photographers.

I would not knock the AF system in the 6D for when it comes to action photography, though. For most action photography, you want a high SS, which frequently means ISO gets raised, too, something which the 6D is good at. I have used the 6D for sports photography without any issues. Friday Night Lights, are no problem. At its’ currently selling price, the 6D is a steal.

If you like the 6D, then you would probably dislike the 77D, which should have been named T7s, IMHO. The 77D lacks a few key features that are found in the 80D. And, the AF system is slightly downgraded version of that found in the 80D.

If you like the low light performance of the 6D, then you would probably be disappointed with the 7D2. The only time I use mine is outdoors, on bright sunny days. The highest ISO I use is 800. At ISO 1600 I find myself reaching for Noise Reduction sliders in post.

If you like the low light performance of the 6D, then you will be surprised by the 80D. It falls midway between the 7D2 and 6D when it comes to low noise. The 80D is pretty good at ISO 1600. It has an AF system that is probably more sensitive than that found in the 7D2.

If you like the 6D, then you would love the 6D2. The 6D2 has the next generation AF system found in the 80D, and the low noise performance found in the 6D. The 6D2 also has a couple of feature not found in the 6D. One feature I like about it is that you can dial in exposure compensation in Manual mode. The 30% increase in resolution is the best improvement.

As others have noted, the Canon lineup seems to be “stuck between clubs” right now. There is a technological leap in performance looming just over the horizon. I cannot say what type of improvements are coming, but a 7D3 is going to have some large boots to fill.

When it comes to Image Quality, both the 80D and 6D2 easily beat the 7D2 when it comes to noise. They also have the next generation DPAF sensors, which give it a definite edge over the 7D2, which has a first generation version of the sensor technology.

If I needed a camera today, then I would go for the 80D or 6D2. But, you have two working cameras, so you really do not need a camera today. It might be wise to wait and see what Canon has to offer, because as others have noted, the price of current gear may drop slightly.

Re: Second Camera

ScottS — Sun, 26 Aug 2018 10:04:44 GMT

@shadowsports wrote:
ScottS,
If you are considering APS-C, an 80D is the only way to go.

Then again, I agree with the wait and see whats coming from Canon.

Its possible the 5D4 will drop in price once Canon releases its first mirrorless. Might not be dramatic, but will be some I'm sure.

I'd hang tight. But thats just me.

Thanks for your input, Rick! I appreciate your insights. Do you own an 80D? If so, how are you finding the IQ? I tend to agree from everything that I've read, that the 80D is definitely a "cut above" the 77D.

Re: Second Camera

ScottS — Sun, 26 Aug 2018 10:08:15 GMT

@RobertTheFat wrote:
@shadowsports wrote:
ScottS,
If you are considering APS-C, an 80D is the only way to go.

Then again, I agree with the wait and see whats coming from Canon.

Its possible the 5D4 will drop in price once Canon releases its first mirrorless. Might not be dramatic, but will be some I'm sure.

I'd hang tight. But thats just me.
The FF mirrorless may also produce a glut of refurbished 5D3's.

In answer to your original question, I'll cast a vote for going with a second FF camera. Canon's EF lenses are offered in focal lengths that generally fit better with FF than with APS-C cameras. And the FF cameras' better low-light performance also argues in their favor.

Full disclosure: Earlier this year I bought a 5D4 to go with my 4-year-old 5D3, completing my transition to FF. I still have one 7D, which my wife and I share as a backup camera. (Her main camera is a 7D Mark II.) I gave my other 7D to my daughter.

Thanks for your insights, Bob!

How do you like the 5D4? Any specific improvements from the 5D3 that you consider game-changers? I've been wondering about which of those two to choose if I go "up" in my FF arsenal. Seems the pricing is almost unbelievably similar these days. I've seen a difference of around $300 typically!

Scott S

Re: Second Camera

ScottS — Sun, 26 Aug 2018 10:12:57 GMT

Thanks for your insights, Tronhard!

That IS a lot of gear! Life is short! Why not :)?!

If you were shooting portraiture (Senior Pics) or an event (Wedding, Reunion) what would you bring along?

I'm really "proud" of my Canon 40D for still making me work to get the right shot and then delivering. Tougher than with my 6D, though. I'm such a low light, IQ thinking person, that I'm leaning to a FF. But I keep hearing great things about the 7D Mark II as well. A professioinal wedding photographer friend of mine has the 5D3, 5D4, 7DII, and an old 40D. I should ask him, too, what he brings to a shoot.

I'm not a professional, nor are wedding gis in my near future. But after this senior photography shoot, I'm feeling that I might just get asked by more former students. The AF on the 6D worked for most shots, but made me nervous. The light-gathering and IQ was amazing when I "hit it." But there were some throw-outs. And my secret belief is that 40+ AF points on the 5D series would solve that.

Thoughts on your gear for those purposes?

Thanks!

Scott S

Re: Second Camera

ScottS — Sun, 26 Aug 2018 10:20:44 GMT

@Waddizzle wrote:
The 5D3 and 5D4 are good choices, but you want to know what else is out there. The 5D Series are all around workhorses. The 7D2 almost falls into that category, too, but it is better suited for action photographers than wedding photographers.

I would not knock the AF system in the 6D for when it comes to action photography, though. For most action photography, you want a high SS, which frequently means ISO gets raised, too, something which the 6D is good at. I have used the 6D for sports photography without any issues. Friday Night Lights, are no problem. At its’ currently selling price, the 6D is a steal.

If you like the 6D, then you would probably dislike the 77D, which should have been named T7s, IMHO. The 77D lacks a few key features that are found in the 80D. And, the AF system is slightly downgraded version of that found in the 80D.

If you like the low light performance of the 6D, then you would probably be disappointed with the 7D2. The only time I use mine is outdoors, on bright sunny days. The highest ISO I use is 800. At ISO 1600 I find myself reaching for Noise Reduction sliders in post.

If you like the low light performance of the 6D, then you will be surprised by the 80D. It falls midway between the 7D2 and 6D when it comes to low noise. The 80D is pretty good at ISO 1600. It has an AF system that is probably more sensitive than that found in the 7D2.

If you like the 6D, then you would love the 6D2. The 6D2 has the next generation AF system found in the 80D, and the low noise performance found in the 6D. The 6D2 also has a couple of feature not found in the 6D. One feature I like about it is that you can dial in exposure compensation in Manual mode. The 30% increase in resolution is the best improvement.

As others have noted, the Canon lineup seems to be “stuck between clubs” right now. There is a technological leap in performance looming just over the horizon. I cannot say what type of improvements are coming, but a 7D3 is going to have some large boots to fill.

When it comes to Image Quality, both the 80D and 6D2 easily beat the 7D2 when it comes to noise. They also have the next generation DPAF sensors, which give it a definite edge over the 7D2, which has a first generation version of the sensor technology.

If I needed a camera today, then I would go for the 80D or 6D2. But, you have two working cameras, so you really do not need a camera today. It might be wise to wait and see what Canon has to offer, because as others have noted, the price of current gear may drop slightly.

Thanks for your thorough share, Waddizzle! You've replied to me many times over the years, and I appreciate your wisdom! I've also read great things about the 6D2! And I am feeling that the IQ is just too important to me, along with low light situations that I keep finding myself in ~ to justify a 7DII. However, I do keep hearing great things about that camera.

I have a love for my 6D for its weight and IQ and low light and portraiture capacities. I shoot travel photography in India with our tours. They include landscape (of course!), candid portraiture, posed portraiture (Indian Classical Formal Concert), and action (driving on mountain roads, running from leopard (J/K!), and crossing rivers.

I've read over and over again how the weight of the 6D is great for travel. That is what nudged me toward it over the 5D series initially. Well, and money$$$

But now that there could possibly be a glut of senior portraiture photography in my future (think students' word of mouth spreading like wildfire that "Mr. S" now shoots seniors) may require me to assure myself of solid AF. Quick and accurate with fewer missed moments. I know that the weight of the 5D III and IV is greater than the 6D from what I've read.

Your 6D2 thoughts are compelling. I just wonder if I would be served better by the 5D III or IV moving forward?

For travel, I just feel like I've found the Holy Grail in the original 6D (or II had it been available when I popped for the 6D!)

Thanks for your input!

Scott S

Re: Second Camera

ebiggs1 — Sun, 26 Aug 2018 13:06:17 GMT

Scott S,

"I own a Canon 6D and a 40D"

You are replacing the 40D, right? The 80D is the way to go if you are. You would rather go all FF? And you "love" your 6D, the 6D MK II is the way to go. It looks like you already have your answers don't you?

After doing photography for a full lifetime, let me tell you nobody hits all the time. Everybody has "throw aways" no matter what gear you use. With today's current crop of photographic gear there are no really bad choices and no perfect choices. Also, don't buy into the ole inner web hype you have to have a certain camera for a certain subject.

Re: Second Camera

ScottS — Sun, 26 Aug 2018 14:18:25 GMT

@ebiggs1 wrote:
Scott S,
"I own a Canon 6D and a 40D"

You are replacing the 40D, right? The 80D is the way to go if you are. You would rather go all FF? And you "love" your 6D, the 6D MK II is the way to go. It looks like you already have your answers don't you?

After doing photography for a full lifetime, let me tell you nobody hits all the time. Everybody has "throw aways" no matter what gear you use. With today's current crop of photographic gear there are no really bad choices and no perfect choices. Also, don't buy into the ole inner web hype you have to have a certain camera for a certain subject.

Hi Ernie!

How are you? Always appreciate your wisdom AND your direct approach. I can tell you are a true photographer, and a man of his word. You named my exact quandary. Needs answering by me, yours truly. If I am replacing the Canon 40D, then as you suggest it would seem the Canon 80D is a solid "answer."

If I am wanting to upgrade and love the Canon 6D, it seems that a 6D2 may be a solid "answer."

That is my challenge point. At this moment ($$$ not even the issue, which it is for now but eventually will not be, because I will wait until I can follow my heart, no matter which way I go)

You are a pro. You possess a 1DX and a 1D Mark IV. Clearly gear HAS been a consideration for you. But I could not agree more ~ because I have a ton more experience as a photographer than I did the last time I posted on the Canon Forum last year. It's the photographer, not the gear, that makes the shot.

Within reason of course. But a photographer with tons of skill who has the gear to "allow" for the creative and great shot: can make a huge difference, too. Not sure I'm there yet. My senior portraits turned out great! But I did have throw aways. I appreciated your comment about that. Very reassuring. Sincerely, thank-you! It's easy to think it's just ourselves, but others have those "toss out pics, too!"

You have gone up, up, up to the 1D Level. It's hard for me to answer this question: Would moving "up" to the 5D series get me thinking in new ways, trying new things, and advance my photography at a higher level? Perhaps not. But perhaps so. I can honestly say that my 40D has captured some of my best images. But when I went FF to my 6D, I started seeing things in new ways, and had opportunities that I had not had with the 40D. And to be honest, my photography went way up. Most of my best images now are with that FF.

So...back to you (thanks for letting me philosophize in front of you ;)!!). Your move "up" to the 1D's must have impacted your photography at levels that I am nowhere near at this point as a hobbyist (impassioned) photographer. I know I'm not "ready" or "worthy" of the 1D level of technology, because I wouldn't understand its nuances yet.

So for Scott S, the question seems to be "readiness" as well as "Jing$$$."

But in your opinion: The Canon 80D is solid? The Canon 6D2 is solid?

Thanks for your time, Ernie!

All my Best!

Scott S 🙂

Re: Second Camera

ebiggs1 — Sun, 26 Aug 2018 15:52:53 GMT

Whoa, I don't know I deserve all that but thanx anyway.

"But in your opinion: The Canon 80D is solid? The Canon 6D2 is solid?"

I think the EOS 80D with the Sigma 18-35mm f/1.8 DC HSM Art Lens for Canon is one of the best kept secrets in all of photography. I was entirely impressed when I got to try one. So much so I considered buying an 80D just to be able to use that lens.

IMHO, the biggest difference you will see between the 6D Mk II and a 5D Mk III and even the Mk IV will be the build. Real world, not laboratory. All these are very capable cameras that make beautiful pictures. Of course when you get right down to just which one is the best, the Mk IV is going to come out on top. Will it show up in the work you do? Maybe, you have to answer that. That is the 64k question, isn't it?

You know going through the years, back in the late 50's when I was using a pair of Augus C3's (I still have them) was totally impressed and happy. Now I have a 1DX and guess what, I am still happy. Am I any happier? ____________

If it is working for you use it, if not change something. Go with what you know, you like the 6D, most likely you will also like the 6D Mk II.

Oh, a little tidbit for you. I ran into a Kansas City Star photographer a few weeks ago while on a shoot. She was still using a 40D.

Re: Second Camera

Waddizzle — Sun, 26 Aug 2018 18:05:38 GMT

@ebiggs1 wrote:
Also, don't buy into the ole inner web hype you have to have a certain camera for a certain subject.

It it is not “inner web hype.” It is your hype. You are the only one around here who says that you must have a certain camera for certain subjects, Everything is always an absollute for you.

Actually, people talk about how certain bodies are better suited for certain tasks, while others are not. This is why Canon makes a variety of models. Everyone has different needs, and people point out the differences between models.

You even do it yourself, believe it or not. Case in point, your recommendations on what tasks are ideal for a 5DS or 5DSr, and which tasks those bodies would not be the best choice: i.e; hand held, action photography. If someone does want a camera body for action photography, then your primary recommendation, if not your only, is the 7D Mark II.

Re: Second Camera

RobertTheFat — Mon, 27 Aug 2018 02:04:50 GMT

@ScottS wrote:

Thanks for your insights, Bob!
How do you like the 5D4? Any specific improvements from the 5D3 that you consider game-changers? I've been wondering about which of those two to choose if I go "up" in my FF arsenal. Seems the pricing is almost unbelievably similar these days. I've seen a difference of around $300 typically!

Scott S

Actually there is one, which was completely unexpected. (I guess I didn't read the specs carefully enough.) The 5D4 displays a full-time electronic level in the viewfinder that warns you if you have the horizon tilted or if you're pointing the camera up or down. Previous cameras that I've owned had an electronic level, but you had to let it take over the LCD screen (clumsy) or rely on tilting of the red autofocus squares (hard to read accurately). I think the new feature is a big improvement.

It's also nice to be able to synchronize the time with your computer via WiFi instead of plugging in a USB cable, but that's not in the same class with the level.

Re: Second Camera

RobertTheFat — Mon, 27 Aug 2018 02:37:19 GMT

@ScottS wrote:
@ebiggs1 wrote:
Scott S,
"I own a Canon 6D and a 40D"

You are replacing the 40D, right? The 80D is the way to go if you are. You would rather go all FF? And you "love" your 6D, the 6D MK II is the way to go. It looks like you already have your answers don't you?

After doing photography for a full lifetime, let me tell you nobody hits all the time. Everybody has "throw aways" no matter what gear you use. With today's current crop of photographic gear there are no really bad choices and no perfect choices. Also, don't buy into the ole inner web hype you have to have a certain camera for a certain subject.
Hi Ernie!

How are you? Always appreciate your wisdom AND your direct approach. I can tell you are a true photographer, and a man of his word. You named my exact quandary. Needs answering by me, yours truly. If I am replacing the Canon 40D, then as you suggest it would seem the Canon 80D is a solid "answer."

If I am wanting to upgrade and love the Canon 6D, it seems that a 6D2 may be a solid "answer."

That is my challenge point. At this moment ($$$ not even the issue, which it is for now but eventually will not be, because I will wait until I can follow my heart, no matter which way I go)

You are a pro. You possess a 1DX and a 1D Mark IV. Clearly gear HAS been a consideration for you. But I could not agree more ~ because I have a ton more experience as a photographer than I did the last time I posted on the Canon Forum last year. It's the photographer, not the gear, that makes the shot.

Within reason of course. But a photographer with tons of skill who has the gear to "allow" for the creative and great shot: can make a huge difference, too. Not sure I'm there yet. My senior portraits turned out great! But I did have throw aways. I appreciated your comment about that. Very reassuring. Sincerely, thank-you! It's easy to think it's just ourselves, but others have those "toss out pics, too!"

You have gone up, up, up to the 1D Level. It's hard for me to answer this question: Would moving "up" to the 5D series get me thinking in new ways, trying new things, and advance my photography at a higher level? Perhaps not. But perhaps so. I can honestly say that my 40D has captured some of my best images. But when I went FF to my 6D, I started seeing things in new ways, and had opportunities that I had not had with the 40D. And to be honest, my photography went way up. Most of my best images now are with that FF.

So...back to you (thanks for letting me philosophize in front of you ;)!!). Your move "up" to the 1D's must have impacted your photography at levels that I am nowhere near at this point as a hobbyist (impassioned) photographer. I know I'm not "ready" or "worthy" of the 1D level of technology, because I wouldn't understand its nuances yet.

So for Scott S, the question seems to be "readiness" as well as "Jing$$$."

But in your opinion: The Canon 80D is solid? The Canon 6D2 is solid?

Thanks for your time, Ernie!

All my Best!

Scott S 🙂

I think you get the point. Better equipment will make any photographer better, but how much better depends on how good the photographer already is. The better one already is, the more difference better equipment makes. If an inexperienced photographer buys better equipment, the effect may take longer to show up; but it may enable him/her to go longer before upgrading again.

Re: Second Camera

Waddizzle — Mon, 27 Aug 2018 04:16:01 GMT

@RobertTheFat wrote:
@ScottS wrote:

Thanks for your insights, Bob!
How do you like the 5D4? Any specific improvements from the 5D3 that you consider game-changers? I've been wondering about which of those two to choose if I go "up" in my FF arsenal. Seems the pricing is almost unbelievably similar these days. I've seen a difference of around $300 typically!

Scott S
Actually there is one, which was completely unexpected. (I guess I didn't read the specs carefully enough.) The 5D4 displays a full-time electronic level in the viewfinder that warns you if you have the horizon tilted or if you're pointing the camera up or down. Previous cameras that I've owned had an electronic level, but you had to let it take over the LCD screen (clumsy) or rely on tilting of the red autofocus squares (hard to read accurately). I think the new feature is a big improvement.

It's also nice to be able to synchronize the time with your computer via WiFi instead of plugging in a USB cable, but that's not in the same class with the level.

The 6D2 has a viewfinder level, too. The primary differences between a 6D2 and a 5D4 are build: body frame; body sealing; sensor resolution; and shutter speed.

Re: Second Camera

Tronhard — Mon, 27 Aug 2018 05:05:10 GMT

I have watched this with interest and have only a couple of comments.

1. You can't expect to get 100% or anywhere near that if you are picky about your photos, especially the less control you have over the shooting environment. I don't do portraits (which is why I held back), but I do wildlife and that has a success ratio because of the light and the movement of the animals - it can be quite challenging getting a full-grown grizzly to cooperate!

2. I agree that if you are seeking to upgrade both bodies and you have a FF and a crop body, and if that format works for you, then I would go with the 80D (it's a great camera it too has a full-time level). I am not familiar with the 6D2 so will leave that to others. I do have a 5dIII and love it.

3. There is some value to be had from getting a newly superceded model, if you don't need or will make use of the absolute latest tech. Waiting until the new 7DIII or the much-touted mirrorless FF body to come out will inevitably drop the prices of the previous models, which - let's face it - are still great cameras.

4. Tech may make you a bit better but in the end technique trumps tech and it's free!

Re: Second Camera

ebiggs1 — Mon, 27 Aug 2018 14:01:55 GMT

"... let's face it - are still great cameras."

How come so many people can not see this. It is like they think when a new model comes out there old one stops working. It doesn't it is still just as good as it ever was.

Great point!