topic Re: Is Mark 4 focus system inferior FOR STREET PHOTOGRAPHY to the Mark 3? in EOS DSLR & Mirrorless Cameras

Is Mark 4 focus system inferior FOR STREET PHOTOGRAPHY to the Mark 3?

Streker26 — Sun, 20 May 2018 02:01:51 GMT

I have upgraded to the Mark 4 from the Mark 3. I do street photography of people. It seems that the Mark 4 works in a very, very different fashion then the Mark 3 when it comes to autofocus. I have tried every single focus setting or combination of settings but I continue to have problems. I am using exclusively a 50mm 1.4 USM lens as I did on the Mark 3 by the way. So it seems like the Mark 4 takes longer to focus. It sometimes hunts. The shutter button as well is not as responsive. But the biggest problem that is driving me up the wall is very often the camera will focus on the background to the exclusion of foreground subjects. And I don't just mean small figures in the foreground but even when I have a person filling one third of the frame in the center of the field! It is weird because this is not always the case but it is often the case. It is especially bad when I shoot fast. If I am slow and deliberate it is less often a problem. But the thing is that this was NEVER an issue with the Mark 3 for me. So I would love to know what settings people recommend as best to quickly catch in focus a a foreground figure in priority over background subjects. And also if others have had similar issues with this camera in relation to it's predecessor. Thanks

Re: Is Mark 4 focus system inferior FOR STREET PHOTOGRAPHY to the Mark 3?

jrhoffman75 — Sun, 20 May 2018 02:16:05 GMT

Single center point or maybe single surround?

Re: Is Mark 4 focus system inferior FOR STREET PHOTOGRAPHY to the Mark 3?

Streker26 — Sun, 20 May 2018 03:24:58 GMT

Hi,

Thanks for responding. I've tried them all. Single point seems to work best. Expanded AF area and Auto Select AF (which acording to what I have read is supposed to be best for locking focus on fast moving subjects in your foreground) are not as successful. Im generally shooting in AI Focus.

For what it is worth I shoot very fast so as not to be noticed. I will shoot someone standing in front of a storefront or walking past me in the street. %50 of the time the camera will focus on someone more distant from the subject or even focus on the store behind the subject. Even when the subject is five feet from the frame. I must be doing something wrong but it keeps happening. The other day I had two woman talking and they were three feet from me and the camera focused on the background store behind them although they practically filled the frame. Now if I slowly lift the camera to my eye and press the shutter slowly this will happen less. And it is not the lens as I have two 50mm lenses that this happens with equally.

Re: Is Mark 4 focus system inferior FOR STREET PHOTOGRAPHY to the Mark 3?

diverhank — Sun, 20 May 2018 06:29:29 GMT

Everyone who has a 5D Mark IV who had the Mark III basically agrees that the 5D Mark IV Autofocus is improved from the Mark III that was already very good. The features, however, remain very similar. That leads me to believe that maybe some of your settings were inadvertently set up wrong. You might want to reset the camera, just in case.

In case you're not familiar with the 5D Mark IV AF features. Here's a Canon youtube link that gives you the basics on the AF system:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KY6VHltC-1U

Re: Is Mark 4 focus system inferior FOR STREET PHOTOGRAPHY to the Mark 3?

Streker26 — Sun, 20 May 2018 07:51:02 GMT

Perhaps ... or perhaps the copy I have is defective in some way. What auto-focus setting wouo you use specifically to prioritize foreground figures over their backgrounds?

Re: Is Mark 4 focus system inferior FOR STREET PHOTOGRAPHY to the Mark 3?

Waddizzle — Sun, 20 May 2018 08:09:48 GMT

@Streker26 wrote:
Im generally shooting in AI Focus.
.

The use of AI Focus mode is more than likely source of all of your troubles. I suggest using One Shot mode for street photography, and never use AI Focus mode ever again.

Re: Is Mark 4 focus system inferior FOR STREET PHOTOGRAPHY to the Mark 3?

Streker26 — Sun, 20 May 2018 08:14:54 GMT

But one shot mode is specifically for still subjects. No? That is why I don't use it. I have used Servo and AI because I either shoot people in motion or I am in motion myself or both!

Re: Is Mark 4 focus system inferior FOR STREET PHOTOGRAPHY to the Mark 3?

Waddizzle — Mon, 21 May 2018 02:15:21 GMT

One Shot mode can be used for anything, even action sports, with a fast enough shutter and the proper depth of field.

Avoid AI Focus because it does not work as well as it was intended. Not only does the camera have to focus, but it takes a little extra time to decide if it should [use] One Shot mode or AI Servo mode. Stick to [manually] selecting One Shot or AI Servo mode, instead of letting the camera do it for you. This is not all that different from selecting your own AF point, instead of letting the camera do it for you.

AI Servo mode is not used for “moving” subjects, per se. Lenses have a plane of perfect focus. Depending upon your aperture setting, there is some distance behind and in front of the focus plane where subjects are in “acceptable” focus. This is called DOF.

AI Servo mode is [used to] track subjects whose distance to the camera is changing. As the distance to the subject changes, the subject can move away from the focused plane, and out of the DOF. AI Servo is used to adjust the focusing distance to the subject, as the subject moves away or towards the camera, to keep the subject within an acceptable DOF, if not in perfect focus.

Re: Is Mark 4 focus system inferior FOR STREET PHOTOGRAPHY to the Mark 3?

Waddizzle — Sun, 20 May 2018 10:34:57 GMT

@Streker26 wrote:
Perhaps ... or perhaps the copy I have is defective in some way. What auto-focus setting wouo you use specifically to prioritize foreground figures over their backgrounds?

One Shot mode, and a manually selected AF point. The center one is typically the easiest and best one to use.

Re: Is Mark 4 focus system inferior FOR STREET PHOTOGRAPHY to the Mark 3?

jrhoffman75 — Sun, 20 May 2018 11:56:37 GMT

AI Focus mode lets the camera decide between One Shot or AI Servo depending on whether or not the camera sees subject motion. But, the camera isn’t smart enough to sense between subject moving or you moving the camera, especyif you are grab shooting. I can’t imagine street photography subjects moving enough to warrant using AI Servo. Set One Shot and Center point and I think you will better success rates.

Re: Is Mark 4 focus system inferior FOR STREET PHOTOGRAPHY to the Mark 3?

TTMartin — Sun, 20 May 2018 13:39:02 GMT

wrote:

One Shot mode, and a manually selected AF point. The center one is typically the easiest and best one to use.

Sorry, in my opinion this is BAD advice.

Canon's Rudy Winston's advice is that:

One Shot should be used for subjects that will not move.

AIServo should be used for moving subjects or subjects that may move.

AIFocus should not be used.

The poster recommending One Shot for everything relies on a large depth of field for moving subjects.

I expect a lengthy argumentative reply, but, I'll keep my post short and to the fact.

The following photo was taken with AIServo, center AF Point with surrounding helper points.It is forth in a series of a moving subject in front of a cluttered background all of which focused on the subject.

This following photos were taken with the same settings, notice how the shallow depth of field gives a nice blurry background.

If you are going to rely on a large depth of field to capture moving subjects you might as well be using a point and shoot.

Re: Is Mark 4 focus system inferior FOR STREET PHOTOGRAPHY to the Mark 3?

jrhoffman75 — Sun, 20 May 2018 14:00:29 GMT

I don't disagree with what you are advising Tom if the scenario is still camera focusing on subjects that may move; you proved the advise. Camera acquires the subject and tracks possible motion.

But, in the OP's case he is sometimes moving the camera - quick grab shots: "The other day I had two woman talking and they were three feet from me and the camera focused on the background store behind them although they practically filled the frame. Now if I slowly lift the camera to my eye and press the shutter slowly this will happen less." I think in the first case subject acquisition is going to be more difficult; no time for camera to think.

Re: Is Mark 4 focus system inferior FOR STREET PHOTOGRAPHY to the Mark 3?

diverhank — Sun, 20 May 2018 14:10:43 GMT

@Streker26 wrote:
Perhaps ... or perhaps the copy I have is defective in some way. What auto-focus setting wouo you use specifically to prioritize foreground figures over their backgrounds?

I'm fairly confident that it's just the way you're using AF that is the problem. Taking pictures of people moving around should not be very hard at all. Even the most rudimentary cameras can do it. All you need is to understand what the camera does in what you're using in and then a lot of practice.

Hopefully you have viewed the Canon video via the link. Then check and see where your focus point is. The camera remembers where you set it last and if you've inadvertently moved it to one corner, it will remain there until you change it. And the focus will be wrong. Did you reset the camera to its default?

Prioritizing the foreground figures is the camera default if you are using multiple points. Check the focus cases to see if you have set it to case 2. Case 2 is the only one that would not prioritize any objects (including front objects) once you've tracked one.

How have you been using AI Servo? Just in case you don't already know, in AI Servo, you need to identify the object, acquire focus on it (you have no beep or anything to confirm, unlike one-shot mode) then keep depressing the focus (or shutter) button in order for the camera to continue tracking. You will need to move the camera along with the subject or you might lose focus.

For your case, I'd use all 61 point focus and select the option to start out with a beginning focus point (see the video for instructions). For street photography, I wouldn't bother with AI Servo, just refocus when the object move but AI Servo would work very well also if you know what you're doing...

Re: Is Mark 4 focus system inferior FOR STREET PHOTOGRAPHY to the Mark 3?

Waddizzle — Sun, 20 May 2018 14:21:21 GMT

@jrhoffman75 wrote:
I don't disagree with what you are advising Tom if the scenario is still camera focusing on subjects that may move; you proved the advise. Camera acquires the subject and tracks possible motion.

But, in the OP's case he is sometimes moving the camera - quick grab shots: "The other day I had two woman talking and they were three feet from me and the camera focused on the background store behind them although they practically filled the frame. Now if I slowly lift the camera to my eye and press the shutter slowly this will happen less." I think in the first case subject acquisition is going to be more difficult; no time for camera to think.

I agree with you regarding quick shot and limited movements of street subjects. Typically, the only time I use AI Servo is when I am also using Continuous drive mode. For Single Shot drive mode, I almost always use One Shot focusing mode.

One Shot mode simply focuses at the selected AF point, and gives you the fastest focus lock. AI Servo asks the camera to not only focus, but to also begin analyzing the scene, and tracking subject movement. Now you have to worry about focus tracking settings. Street subjects do not move fast or far enough to warrant AI Servo. One Shot and a fast shutter is all you really need, IMHO.

Tom, those are very nice shots of birds in the wild. I do not see how using a long, super telephoto in AI Servo mode to shoot birds in flight applies to street photography with a 50mm lens.

Re: Is Mark 4 focus system inferior FOR STREET PHOTOGRAPHY to the Mark 3?

TTMartin — Sun, 20 May 2018 14:24:49 GMT

@jrhoffman75 wrote:
I don't disagree with what you are advising Tom if the scenario is still camera focusing on subjects that may move; you proved the advise. Camera acquires the subject and tracks possible motion.

But, in the OP's case he is sometimes moving the camera - quick grab shots: "The other day I had two woman talking and they were three feet from me and the camera focused on the background store behind them although they practically filled the frame. Now if I slowly lift the camera to my eye and press the shutter slowly this will happen less." I think in the first case subject acquisition is going to be more difficult; no time for camera to think.

That is because the OP was using AIFocus.

AIFocus does not work in quick situations as the camera starts assuming a static subject (One Shot) and then if it detects movement only then does it switch to AIServo for a moving subject.

Re: Is Mark 4 focus system inferior FOR STREET PHOTOGRAPHY to the Mark 3?

TTMartin — Sun, 20 May 2018 14:26:45 GMT

wrote:

Tom, those are very nice shots of birds in the wild. I do not see how using a long, super telephoto in AI Servo mode to shoot birds in flight applies to street photography with a 50mm lens.

Both involve moving subjects with cluttered backgrounds and most importantly a shallow depth of field.

Re: Is Mark 4 focus system inferior FOR STREET PHOTOGRAPHY to the Mark 3?

Waddizzle — Sun, 20 May 2018 14:41:42 GMT

@TTMartin wrote:
@jrhoffman75 wrote:
I don't disagree with what you are advising Tom if the scenario is still camera focusing on subjects that may move; you proved the advise. Camera acquires the subject and tracks possible motion.

But, in the OP's case he is sometimes moving the camera - quick grab shots: "The other day I had two woman talking and they were three feet from me and the camera focused on the background store behind them although they practically filled the frame. Now if I slowly lift the camera to my eye and press the shutter slowly this will happen less." I think in the first case subject acquisition is going to be more difficult; no time for camera to think.
That is because the OP was using AIFocus.

AIFocus does not work in quick situations as the camera starts assuming a static subject (One Shot) and then if it detects movement only then does it switch to AIServo for a moving subject.

My gut suspicion is that the OP could be pressing the shutter too early. If half press the shutter, to wake up the camera, before you begin looking through the viewfinder and framing a shot, you can easily wind up focusing on the background.

Re: Is Mark 4 focus system inferior FOR STREET PHOTOGRAPHY to the Mark 3?

Waddizzle — Sun, 20 May 2018 14:56:52 GMT

@diverhank wrote:
@Streker26 wrote:

I'm fairly confident that it's just the way you're using AF that is the problem.

Hopefully you have viewed the Canon video via the link. Then check and see where your focus point is. The camera remembers where you set it last and if you've inadvertently moved it to one corner, it will remain there until you change it. And the focus will be wrong. Did you reset the camera to its default?
...

I get around the “problem” of moving the AF point by using a Custom Shooting mode, with automatic update disabled. Instead of the camera maintaining the last AF point, it resets to my center AF point whenever the metering system goes idle.

In fact, everything gets reset back to the custom mode’s default settings when the metering goes idle. Yes, there is a button to press that resets the AF point for you, but that just adds one more “camera thing” to think about and remember to do, instead of just capturing the next shot.

Re: Is Mark 4 focus system inferior FOR STREET PHOTOGRAPHY to the Mark 3?

ebiggs1 — Sun, 20 May 2018 15:07:21 GMT

"I have upgraded to the Mark 4 from the Mark 3." " I am using exclusively a 50mm 1.4 USM lens ..."

I have been reading all the 'helpful' replies on focus choices. I am certain they will help? However, I might suggest you choose a better lens for what you like to photograph. Primes are nice but have very specific limitations. They don't zoom in other words. My suggestion is you check out one of these lenses the Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II USM Lens or perhaps the Canon EF 24-105mm f/4L IS II USM Lens.

BTW, on the focus issue I would choose AI-servo and center point priority.

Re: Is Mark 4 focus system inferior FOR STREET PHOTOGRAPHY to the Mark 3?

Waddizzle — Sun, 20 May 2018 15:31:33 GMT

“However, I might suggest you choose a better lens for what you like to photograph.”

I agree, the choice of lens could be better. In fact, the choice of lens is exactly why you do not want to use AI Servo.