topic Re: Upgrading from 60D or buy a good glass? Tight budget in EOS DSLR & Mirrorless Cameras

Upgrading from 60D or buy a good glass? Tight budget

AutumnApple — Sun, 22 Oct 2017 19:34:10 GMT

I am sorry if this question pop up a lot but I'd be appreciate some recommendation for my case.

I have been using Canon 60D for a while, mostly for my kid's pictures and occasionally landscape or wild animals.

I got 3 STM lens to cover what i need: 18-55mm, 50mm, 55-250mm. (going to be given 70-300 IS USM II). Problem is running outside with a kid, there's hardly a chance for switching lenses, I found myself using 55-250 most of the time, to get some decent photos of my kid and some room for nature photos but that also mean lots of struggle when wide angle is needed.

Now I'm thinking of 2 options:

- sell my lenses and get Canon 24-105mm L lens for all purposed.

For this, would I gain higher image quality ? Would this still produce good boker since it's f4. I am ok with shorter zoom.

- or should I upgrade my 60D to 6D and keep 50mm STM with 70-300 IS USM II?

Would this option yield better result in general compared with lens upgrade?

I had pretty bad luck with third party lenses so I'd prefer to avoid them at all cost. Thanks for reading and I'd much appreciate to hear some recommendation.

Re: Upgrading from 60D or buy a good glass? Tight budget

Waddizzle — Sun, 22 Oct 2017 21:13:20 GMT

I do not know of a lens that can go from wide angle to telephoto, and do it well. I understand the need for a wide angle on an APS-C body, due to its’ narrower angle of view. I can understand the advantages to using an APS-C body with a telephoto lens to photograph wildlife.

Those are very different scenarios, which require a minimum of two different lenses. Maybe, even a second camera body and lens. I cannot answer for you, but I perhaps some questions might make your choice clearer. Is the image quality not up to what you wish to see?

What would be the ideal range of focal lengths for photographing the kids in the yard? I would think your 18-55mm would be nearly ideal for the task. What you are facing is what I think of as “stuck between clubs”. Your zoom lens ranges do not overlap. Personally, I prefer some overlap.

What would be your ideal range of focal lengths for photographing wildlife? What size and type of wild animals? How far away are the wild animals? Unless you are in a zoo, most wildlife photographers want a 400mm lens at a minimum. Preferably, 600mm. The longer the better.

The EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM is a great standard zoom lens. It is probably the most popular “first L” lens that people own, mainly due to it being included in high end camera kits. Canon has recently released a version II of the lens. If you are on a budget, look for the original version at the Canon Online Refurbished Store. It is THE PLACE to go for deals on Canon gear, and all of it comes with a one year warranty.

My second choice for a standard zoom would be the EF-S 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS STM lens. But, it would not work with a full frame 6D, if you are serious about going full frame camera body.

If high ISO performance is not crucial, then you may want to look at the 80D. It has very good low noise performance, which is better than a 7D Mark II, and Canon’s 45 point AF system, with a Dual Pixel CMOS image sensor. The 80D can auto focus while shooting video, while the 7D2 cannot. The 6D has none of those features, but it does have a full frame sensor, GPS, and Wi-Fi. I have a 6D, and I rarely use the GPS or Wi-Fi. GPS drains the battery, and Wi-Fi doesn’t work as fast as USB.

But, I encourage you to be critique what you are doing. Figure out what obstacles you wish to overcome. You seem to have one facet identified, you’re struck between clubs when it comes to lenses. But, that has nothing to do with a desire to upgrade your camera body. That is where you need to be brutally honest with yourself.

BTW, good glass is where it is at. Your images will never be better than the quality of your lenses.

Re: Upgrading from 60D or buy a good glass? Tight budget

AutumnApple — Mon, 23 Oct 2017 01:13:39 GMT

Thank you Waddizzle.

The range I find myself using most would be around 35mm- 100mm on my cropsensor, randomly using the max 250mm on my lens shooting some birds or small rodent when they are close enough. That gave me the ideal of 24-105L as walkaround lens as I would have little wide angle without having to switch lens.

The reasons I was thinking about 6d were that I heard it has great image quality in low light situations, plus a lightweight FF.

I am small female

We do a lots of hiking in the wood where light is not ideals and though I always try to keep the ISO as low as possible, my photos often have heavy noise.

I notice that my Canon 60d produce a lot of grains in that situations. Possibly with some user mistakes too.

I tried 18-135 IS version and not very impressed, maybe the STM would do better ? After answering your question, I do lean toward the L glass so definely will check out Canon refurbished store.

Re: Upgrading from 60D or buy a good glass? Tight budget

Waddizzle — Mon, 23 Oct 2017 07:04:16 GMT

Okay. A focal range of 35-100mm would be a good fit for the EF 24-105 f/4L. But, if you are hiking in dense woods, then that lens may be a little slow for a 60D. I would want a lens with a maximum aperture of f/2.8, or faster.

But, faster standard zooms are above your budget goals. The EF 24-70mm f/2.8L Ii IS USM would be a good zoom lens to use. But, I would still want a faster lens, like your EF 50mm f/1.8 STM, which probably feels a little long in dense woods.

When I do not know the specifics of the shooting conditions, I tend to err on the side of a wider angle lens than what would have been ideal. My favorite lens for venturing into the unknown on foot is the EF 16-35mm f/2.8L II USM on a 6D. The EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM would be a comparable lens for an APS-C body, which is a GREAT lens.

My second choice for venturing into the unknown, with a full frame body, is the EF 70-200mm f/2.8L II IS USM. There are a couple of older Canon designs that would offer a similar angle of view on an APS-C body.

My final choices for venturing into the unknown are primes. Either the EF 50mm f/1.4 USM, or the very sharp EF 35mm f/2 IS USM. I had the EF 50mm f/1.8 STM, which I liked better than the f/1.4 version, but gave it away to my son. I still have a couple of APS-C bodies, and my favorite lens for venturing into the unknown is not a Canon lens. It is a Rokinon 14mm T3.1, which is fully manual lens, but has a short hyperfocal distance of just a few feet.

Back to your 60D. There are several camera bodies in the current Canon lineup that would be a significant upgrade over your 60D. The most significant improvements are in the area of AF systems, and less so in the area of sensor resolution, IMHO. Canon has come up with a new AF system for their enthusiast camera bodies, and it is a good one. It is a 45 AF point system, with 27 AF points that have f/8 sensitivity. The 6D has the older generation AF system, but the newer 6D Mark II does have it.

The AF system first appeared in the 80D, and later the 77D and Rebel T7i. Out of those three, i have used only the 80D, and it is an awesome camera body. I would pick the 80D over a 7D Mark II, if given the choice. If you have a significant investment in EF-S lenses, then the 80D may be worth a look. It has noticeably lower noise images than a 7D2 at ISO 3200 and 6400. I would place it halfway between a 6D and a 7D2 when it comes to noise, and leaning closer to the 6D.

I hope this helps. I would advise investing in lenses that fulfill a specific scenario, and less so for a lens that can do it all. Finally, high performance lenses tend to be significantly heavier to your current STM lenses. When walking through the woods , I like to use an over the shoulder, holster bag to hold my gear as I hike. I have also found that the standard camera strap does not balance very well with high performance lenses, too. Just something to think about.

Re: Upgrading from 60D or buy a good glass? Tight budget

ebiggs1 — Mon, 23 Oct 2017 14:32:07 GMT

"Problem is running outside with a kid, there's hardly a chance for switching lenses, ..."

This is an issue that I hear all the time. Probably the greatest feature of a DSLR and the previous SLR is the ability to change lenses to suit the situation. Cameras made before the SLR were not as easily adaptable to conditions. I would suggest you invest in two lenses and 'train' with them. You will be surprised how fluid you can become at switching lenses. But don't give up the best single attribute of your DSLR.

The ef 24-105mm f4L is the best buy in an "L" lens. The fact it has pretty good IQ besides a reasonable price contribute to this. However I doubt it will provide much to any better photos than you are currently getting. The STM lenses are pretty good, too. Part of the "L" lens line is the build. They are designed to be more durable as they are aimed at the pro market. They are going to be heavier. Keep that in mind.

"I had pretty bad luck with third party lenses so I'd prefer to avoid them at all cost."

This is unfortunate because there are some real gems available in the third world lens market. The problem for you is to be careful and selective on which one you buy. Some of the third world lenses are actually better then their Canon counterpart.

For instance any of the Sigma 'Art' series is very good to outstanding. I can imagine they have to have Canon's attention.

In the circle I run in, I used to rarely to never see a third party lens in use. Now I see it fairly often. Personally, I too, am pretty locked into Canon lenses. I see their lenses as the finest line up in the world. But I also see what is happening in the off brand companies. The only off brand lens that routinely goes with me in my bag is the Sigma 150-600mm f/5-6.3 DG OS HSM Sports Lens. The other four are Canon "L" lenses.

"...should I upgrade my 60D to 6D and keep 50mm STM with 70-300 IS USM II?"

If this is the only option, I would keep the lenses you have and the 60D. I am not a fan of the EF 70-300mm f/4-5.6 IS II USM Lens at all. I would highly recommend the EOS 6D and the EF 24-105mm f/4L IS II USM Lens. Sell the rest except maybe for the 50mil. But its only real benefit for you is fast aperture. Once you get the EF 24-105mm f/4L IS II USM Lens on a 6D you won't find much use for the 50mil.

IMHO, of course as always.

Re: Upgrading from 60D or buy a good glass? Tight budget

AutumnApple — Mon, 23 Oct 2017 14:44:05 GMT

Thank you Waddizzle. It's a great help for me as you pointed out specific examples.

I had chances to try Canon EF-S 10-22mm before and it's an awesome lens. I also love my Canon 50mm STM.

I just looked at Canon 80D and realized it could be better option for me than Canon 6D. Plus I do like the convenience of swivel screen.

A little bit side track question,(Sorry if it's not ok to ask in same post) I saw a lot of people posting crystal clear/ exceptionally clean photos, even with cheap kit lens. It's not just the sharpness, it's something that's awesomely clean. Does that have a lot to do with post poccessing or they are just that good?

Re: Upgrading from 60D or buy a good glass? Tight budget

cicopo — Mon, 23 Oct 2017 15:01:36 GMT

I won't give any advice until I know more about how you use what you have. Camera set up has a lot to do with the results. Too slow a shutter speed blurs edges of stationary targets & has a much bigger effect on moving targets. What AF mode are you using? AI Servo or one shot, or maybe AI focus (not available on all models because it's not as good as AI Servo). And are you panning with the movement, with the shutter button 1/2 depressed so that the AF is seeing what's moving as it moves?

Re: Upgrading from 60D or buy a good glass? Tight budget

AutumnApple — Mon, 23 Oct 2017 15:17:30 GMT

@cicopo: I use Al focus if movement is involved. To be honest, I consider myself just past the beginner stage so there's still tons to learn. But, let's say in similar landscape/stationary photos using tripod and similar settings, my photos look sharp but not as clean.That made me wonder about post processing.

Re: Upgrading from 60D or buy a good glass? Tight budget

TTMartin — Mon, 23 Oct 2017 15:51:22 GMT

@AutumnApple wrote:
I am sorry if this question pop up a lot but I'd be appreciate some recommendation for my case.
I have been using Canon 60D for a while, mostly for my kid's pictures and occasionally landscape or wild animals.
I got 3 STM lens to cover what i need: 18-55mm, 50mm, 55-250mm. (going to be given 70-300 IS USM II). Problem is running outside with a kid, there's hardly a chance for switching lenses, I found myself using 55-250 most of the time, to get some decent photos of my kid and some room for nature photos but that also mean lots of struggle when wide angle is needed.

Now I'm thinking of 2 options:
- sell my lenses and get Canon 24-105mm L lens for all purposed.
For this, would I gain higher image quality ? Would this still produce good boker since it's f4. I am ok with shorter zoom.
- or should I upgrade my 60D to 6D and keep 50mm STM with 70-300 IS USM II?
Would this option yield better result in general compared with lens upgrade?

I had pretty bad luck with third party lenses so I'd prefer to avoid them at all cost. Thanks for reading and I'd much appreciate to hear some recommendation.

Practiced more with the gear you have.

Buying new gear won't magically make you get better shots of your kids.

Re: Upgrading from 60D or buy a good glass? Tight budget

AutumnApple — Mon, 23 Oct 2017 16:32:08 GMT

@ebiggs1: thank you very much for your advice.

Re: Upgrading from 60D or buy a good glass? Tight budget

AutumnApple — Mon, 23 Oct 2017 16:35:05 GMT

"Practiced more with the gear you have.

Buying new gear won't magically make you get better shots of your kids"

- Absolutely true. I am doing my best to learn something new and re-learn some other things everyday.

Re: Upgrading from 60D or buy a good glass? Tight budget

cicopo — Mon, 23 Oct 2017 17:05:13 GMT

You may find this helpful. http://www.canonoutsideofauto.ca/

Re: Upgrading from 60D or buy a good glass? Tight budget

TTMartin — Mon, 23 Oct 2017 18:22:57 GMT

@AutumnApple wrote:

I tried 18-135 IS version and not very impressed, maybe the STM would do better?

Yes, the STM version is much better. It is better than the older 18-135 and the EF 24-105 f/4L. I owned the EF-S 18-135 IS STM and the EF 24-105 f/4L until I gave the EF 24-105 f/4L and my 6D to my daughter. Neither the 6D nor the EF 24-105 f/4L outperformed my 7D Mk II with the EF-S 18-135 IS STM, so I was never using them. I gave them to my daughter so they would get some use.

Re: Upgrading from 60D or buy a good glass? Tight budget

TTMartin — Mon, 23 Oct 2017 18:26:03 GMT

@AutumnApple wrote:
@cicopo: I use Al focus if movement is involved. To be honest, I consider myself just past the beginner stage so there's still tons to learn. But, let's say in similar landscape/stationary photos using tripod and similar settings, my photos look sharp but not as clean.That made me wonder about post processing.

You should never use AIFocus.

You should use One Shot if the subject will NOT move (portrait, still life, landscape).

You should use AIServo if the subject MAY move. (kids, animals, flowers in a breeze)

Re: Upgrading from 60D or buy a good glass? Tight budget

AutumnApple — Mon, 23 Oct 2017 18:43:01 GMT

"You should never use AIFocus.

You should use One Shot if the subject will NOT move (portrait, still life, landscape).

You should use AIServo if the subject MAY move. (kids, animals, flowers in a breeze)"

I must have misunderstood that part the whole time after reading the manual. Thanks for pointing it out.

Re: Upgrading from 60D or buy a good glass? Tight budget

TTMartin — Mon, 23 Oct 2017 18:47:49 GMT

@AutumnApple wrote:

I must have misunderstood that part the whole time after reading the manual. Thanks for pointing it out.

No you didn't misunderstand it. The manual gives the impression you can just us AIFocus and the camera will 'figure it out'. The problem is with a moving subject it takes time for the camera to figure out the subject is moving, and if you take the photo before the camera figures out the subject is moving your shot will be out of focus.

Re: Upgrading from 60D or buy a good glass? Tight budget

ScottyP — Mon, 23 Oct 2017 21:53:06 GMT

Hi,

The advice to grow your skills before spending too much on equipment has logic behind it. On the other hand upgrading lenses make such a big difference compared to upgrading bodies in most cases it certainly can't hurt if you have the money and as long as you buy a good workhorse general purpose lens that will be useful no matter where your photography takes you.

An 80d goes for $1,100.00. I would be very much afraid that if you spend That much just to replace your 60d with an 80d instead of/without upgrading your lenses you may see no image quality improvement at all.

I would go for lenses instead of a camera and i would skip the long telephoto/wild animals lens, or at least put it off til later. Good telephoto lenses are expensive, and, short of going on safari, shots of wild animals you are likely to encounter will not be of the kind of lasting value for your money that great quality images of your kids and family would be.

You could stick with crop sensors and get yourself an EF -s 17-55 f/2.8 to upgrade your walk around lens with a brighter sharper model. Then you could decide whether you would also like a wide angle 10-22 for your landscape or if you can make it work just fine with the 17-55.

Alternately you could invest in a 24-70 f/2.8 II. It leaves a crop body slightly lacking for wide angle use, but it is a beautiful fantastic lens on any camera and it would be ready to put into service on a full frame camera later on if you go full frame.

Re: Upgrading from 60D or buy a good glass? Tight budget

Waddizzle — Mon, 23 Oct 2017 23:52:42 GMT

@AutumnApple wrote:
@ebiggs1: thank you very much for your advice.

He suggested the 6D and the EF 24-104mm f/4L II IS USM. I would swap the camera body and lens for the 6D Mark II and the EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM, which is roughly the same cost. The 6D2 will focus better than the original. But, I think that total cost far exceeds your budget.

But, check out the Canon Refurbished store for great deals on Canon gear. You will not find either the 6D Mark II, or the EF 24-105mm f/4L II USM, though. The latest and greatest won’t be there for at least a year, most likely. The 80D is frequently on sale for signicantly less than list price.

What is your budget, anyway?

Re: Upgrading from 60D or buy a good glass? Tight budget

ebiggs1 — Tue, 24 Oct 2017 14:22:00 GMT

"He suggested the 6D and the EF 24-104mm f/4L II IS USM. I would swap the camera body and lens for the 6D Mark II and the EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM, which is roughly the same cost."

I can go for that! This is costly there is no doubt but it will put you squarely into more professional gear. You have the satification knowing got the best gear you can.

Re: Upgrading from 60D or buy a good glass? Tight budget

AutumnApple — Tue, 24 Oct 2017 16:30:17 GMT

Thank you guys for so much help. I really appreciate all your kind advices.

After reading and reconsidering my situation again and again, I decided to keep my 60d for the moment, though the temptation of buying more advanced camera is hard to suppress, evedently I haven't been able to unlock all 60d potentials yet

I will buy Canon 24-105mm IS L to use for general purpose. While I may/ maynot benefit from it base on my current skills, but Im working hard to improve everyday and hopefully in near future, when ready, i would be able to jump for full-frame.