topic Re: 6D MKII a disappointment??? in EOS DSLR & Mirrorless Cameras

6D MKII a disappointment???

skyking — Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:33:11 GMT

I did order the 6D MKII from B&H - arrives Monday. This is an upgrade from my 6D. I am a little concerned about the recent tests showing, at lower ISO's, poorer dynamic range. Apparently the 6D MKII showed very good dynamic range at higher ISO's. Apparently the 80D had better dynamic range at lower ISO"s then the 6D MKII. I'll know a lot better when I get the camera but is that is the truth its a little disappointing for what I'm paying for this camera.

Any comments??

James

Re: 6D MKII a disappointment???

TTMartin — Fri, 28 Jul 2017 16:17:12 GMT

@skyking wrote:
I did order the 6D MKII from B&H - arrives Monday. This is an upgrade from my 6D. I am a little concerned about the recent tests showing, at lower ISO's, poorer dynamic range. Apparently the 6D MKII showed very good dynamic range at higher ISO's. Apparently the 80D had better dynamic range at lower ISO"s then the 6D MKII. I'll know a lot better when I get the camera but is that is the truth its a little disappointing for what I'm paying for this camera.

Any comments??

James

The 80D's RAW file was optimized to score well on the 'tests'. The 'tests' have never accurately reflected the true dynamic range of Canon cameras, because typically Canon has rawer, RAW files than other companies. Canon bakes less processing into their RAW files, and also uses a different black point method. *1

Worry if the camera does what you want and not how it scores on the 'tests'.

If you are interested I have some tips on how to optimize the dynamic range from your rawer Canon RAW files in Lightroom. Basically using Lightroom setting to duplicate what is baked into other companies RAW files.

*1 - 'Nikon currently clips the average read noise at zero, losing some data. Canon includes an offset, so processing by some raw converters can preserve the low end noise, which can be important for averaging multiple frames to detect very low intensity subjects (as in astrophotography).' - Roger Clark, PhD, NASA

Re: 6D MKII a disappointment???

skyking — Fri, 28 Jul 2017 18:22:53 GMT

Roger - Many thanks for your insight. I do agree that sometimes we get caught on what "testing" says and not reality. If you can I would love to get your tips on enhancing the RAW files in Lightroom. BTW, I use Lightroom and lately On1 Raw to process my raw images. Again, any tips you could provide would be greatly appreciated.

Again, your insight was very much appreciated.

James

Re: 6D MKII a disappointment???

ebiggs1 — Sat, 29 Jul 2017 14:35:35 GMT

"Worry if the camera does what you want and not how it scores on the 'tests'."

Wow, you are learning! I am impressed but this certainly is the right way to 'test' a camera. Forget the reviews and so-called tests. How it works for you in the field is what is important. Unless you intend to photograph test charts, that is!

Re: 6D MKII a disappointment???

skyking — Sat, 29 Jul 2017 19:23:08 GMT

Thanks for your advice and you are 100% correct. I do think we get Carried away with what the "testing" says!!

Thanks again for some great advice!

James

Re: 6D MKII a disappointment???

TTMartin — Sat, 29 Jul 2017 22:31:03 GMT

@skyking wrote:
Roger - Many thanks for your insight. I do agree that sometimes we get caught on what "testing" says and not reality. If you can I would love to get your tips on enhancing the RAW files in Lightroom. BTW, I use Lightroom and lately On1 Raw to process my raw images. Again, any tips you could provide would be greatly appreciated.

Again, your insight was very much appreciated.

James

As mentioned above Canon and Nikon set the black point in their RAW files differently so the key to processing a Canon RAW file is to make sure you have a true black, The example below is how I typically process a file. Note the Black alert on the histogram is showing and the highlight alert is not.

All photos are different, but, this is typical processing.

First Highlights are set to -100, and Shadows are set to +100.

Next I get a rough estimate of what my Whites to Black number should be. I want them the same in the end, but, to get a rough estimate run whites up until they clip and blacks down till they clip add the two numbers together and divide by two. Then set White to + (plus) that number and blacks to - (minus) that number.

I then set the exposure so that whites are just shy of clipping on any channel and blacks are just black on all channels. I may have to fine tune the Blacks and Whites at this time.

As you can see in the histogram below increasing the exposure from -.40 to -.30 would cause the whites to start to clip and the blacks start to not be fully black.

Same with the histogram below, with the exposure set back to -.40 if you increased Whites to +35 or Blacks to - 25, whites would clip and the blackest blacks would no longer be true black.

This technique works for properly exposed photos or ones that aren't like the photo below that was five (5) stops underexposed.

Again note Whites and Blacks are equally offset, but, now the exposure is +5.00. Yes, the photo required noise reduction and some has some 'brush' processing, however it was done completely in Lightroom and is overall usable for a photo from and APS-C 7D Mk II with it's poor dynamic range test scores.

edit: Note: this technique does not seem to work as well on cameras whose RAW files have already been optimized for testing like the 80D or 5D Mk IV.

Re: 6D MKII a disappointment???

Waddizzle — Sat, 29 Jul 2017 21:39:33 GMT

I think that I might be doing the same think as TTMartin, except maybe from a different direction, to set the widest dynamic range between whites and blacks without saturation.

After applying lens correction and some clarity during Import, the first thing I do is set the W to B dynamic range. Note the images of the triangles at the top corners of the histograms. The saturatio indicator on the left is for Blacks, and the one on right is for Whites.

The above image on the left shows both Blacks and Whites as being "under", and each can be boosted slightly. This means increasing the Whites level slider, and decreasing the Blacks level slider. More on making adjustments later. Notice how both indicators are not "lit". They are dark.

The image in the center shows both indicators are "over", and are fully lit to the point where they are white. To me, this indicates saturation of both the Whites and Blacks levels. Note the slider settings compared to the "under" image.

The image on the right shows the "ideal" setting. Note how the triangle has changed to a color. Still haven't bothered to figure out what the color means, but I think it is trying to tell me something about the color spectrum.

Making adjustments is pretty simple. Using a Windows PC, I hold down the "ALT" key, and adjust the Whites to the right. The image should go completely dark, and only light up the areas that are saturated as over exposed. You want to increase the level until just before things begin to light up.

If you begin the adjustment, and the screen is completely dark, you will see the saturation indicators will be dark. As you increase the level, the indicator will suddenly turn white. There is a sweet spot between fully off and fully on, where the triangle displays as a colored triangle. This is my goal.

I adjust the Blacks level in a the opposite fashion. If you hold down the "ALT" key as you adjust the slider, the image will turn pure white, and the saturation indicator will probably be fully off. As you decreaase the level, dark spots will appear and the saturation indicator will turn fully white. Back off decreasing the adjustment, and the indicator will change from white to a color. Again, this is the sweet spot that I strive to reach.

[EDIT] Sometimes I will get the outlier exposure, and cannot find a sweet spot. In these cases, I will adjust the Highlights slider to -50, and begin adjusting the Whites. Similarly, I may adjust the Shadows slider to +50, and begin adjusting the Blacks.

Re: 6D MKII a disappointment???

skyking — Sat, 29 Jul 2017 21:49:32 GMT

This is outstanding!!! I greatly appreciate you taking to time to help and ease my "fears" of purchasing this camera. This is also an education to say the least.

Again, Many, many thanks for taking the time to help me. I'm printing your info out for reference.

James

Re: 6D MKII a disappointment???

TTMartin — Sat, 29 Jul 2017 22:30:34 GMT

@Waddizzle wrote:
I think that I might be doing the same think as TTMartin, except maybe from a different direction, to set the widest dynamic range between whites and blacks without saturation.

No, I do not believe we are doing the same thing.

And as I mention since Canon sets their black point differently, keeping the left black triangle 'clear', means you don't have a true black, and are maintaining 'noise' that other manufacturers bury below the black level. That is the reason those cameras score well on the 'tests'. After years of hearing how Canon sensors lacked dynamic range and were noisy, and learning what other manufacturers were baking into their RAW files, I developed my technique to duplicate that baked in processing. And one of the key things is to understand, with Canon RAW files you need to create a true black, black level.

The left image you have the Blacks set to a positive number I recommend, NEVER doing that.

Also, without bringing Shadows to +100 and Highlights to -100 you are not maximizing the dynamic range of the image or the camera.

Re: 6D MKII a disappointment???

skyking — Sat, 29 Jul 2017 23:03:35 GMT

So, if I "hear" you correct I never want to take the black point above "0" and can pull the black point to the negative and even "clip" the blacks. Am I correct??

James

Re: 6D MKII a disappointment???

TTMartin — Sat, 29 Jul 2017 23:36:52 GMT

@skyking wrote:
So, if I "hear" you correct I never want to take the black point above "0" and can pull the black point to the negative and even "clip" the blacks. Am I correct??

James

In my opinion you want blacks 'clipped', so you have a true black, black point. Not just OK to clip the blacks, you always want to clip the blacks. But, as I showed, just barely clipped.

Re: 6D MKII a disappointment???

Waddizzle — Sat, 29 Jul 2017 23:51:28 GMT

@TTMartin wrote:
@Waddizzle wrote:
I think that I might be doing the same think as TTMartin, except maybe from a different direction, to set the widest dynamic range between whites and blacks without saturation.

No, I do not believe we are doing the same thing.

And as I mention since Canon sets their black point differently, keeping the left black triangle 'clear', means you don't have a true black, and are maintaining 'noise' that other manufacturers bury below the black level. That is the reason those cameras score well on the 'tests'. After years of hearing how Canon sensors lacked dynamic range and were noisy, and learning what other manufacturers were baking into their RAW files, I developed my technique to duplicate that baked in processing. And one of the key things is to understand, with Canon RAW files you need to create a true black, black level.

The left image you have the Blacks set to a positive number I recommend, NEVER doing that.

Also, without bringing Shadows to +100 and Highlights to -100 you are not maximizing the dynamic range of the image or the camera.

That is just my initial adjustment. My next step is too usually add some contrast. On many photos I do bring the Shadows and Highlights to those values. Sometimes, though, it seems make the image look a little dull if I max out the adjustment.

[EDIT]. I think you may have completely misunderstood my point, BTW. The left image is th Before. The right image is the After. Again, these are the initial adjustments to an image. What happens next depends upon the image.

Your explaation of what you do is a bit hard to follow. I think you left something out of it.

Re: 6D MKII a disappointment???

TTMartin — Sun, 30 Jul 2017 00:55:42 GMT

@Waddizzle wrote:
That is just my initial adjustment. My next step is too usually add some contrast. On many photos I do bring the Shadows and Highlights to those values. Sometimes, though, it seems make the image look a little dull if I max out the adjustment.

[EDIT]. I think you may have completely misunderstood my point, BTW. The left image is th Before. The right image is the After. Again, these are the initial adjustments to an image. What happens next depends upon the image.

Your explaation of what you do is a bit hard to follow. I think you left something out of it.

Yes, I did miss understand the right one was your final one.

And processing techniques are hard to explain since there are so many variables.

Things I always do:

Blacks are always 'clipped' so you have true black, black level. *1

Blacks is always a negative value, Whites is always a positive value.

Blacks and White are always the same offset from zero, i.e. -25 and +25, -35 and +35, -10 and +10, etc

I adjust Exposure, Blacks and Whites, so the highlights are not clipped (except in the case of specular highlights on reflective images, or the sun is in the image), and the shadows are clipped (have a true black)

This I usually do

I usually set Highlights to -100 and Shadows to +100

*1 - 'Nikon currently clips the average read noise at zero, losing some data. Canon includes an offset, so processing by some raw converters can preserve the low end noise, which can be important for averaging multiple frames to detect very low intensity subjects (as in astrophotography).' - Roger Clark, PhD, NASA

Re: 6D MKII a disappointment???

Waddizzle — Sun, 30 Jul 2017 07:43:15 GMT

I still say that I use a different approach to wind up in the same place. You say that you always wind with an equal offset from zero for Blacks and Whites. My left photo shows exactly that. It shows plus and minus seven as being the final adjustments.

I will point out that this balanced set of adjustments is more the exception, not the rule for me. The content of the image drives the final set of adjustments. I don't see how imposing a requirement that the adjustments must always be symmetrical is desireable. Every image is s different set of circumstances, which should require a different set of adjustments, IMHO.

My point is simple. Lightroom offers a visual display of clipping, just as it does for sharpening. I think it is pretty rare that an image would be equally at or near saturation for both Blacks and Whites. They should be independent adjustments. I use Exposure [and Contrast] to make a symmetrical adjustment.

Re: 6D MKII a disappointment???

derekmccoy — Sun, 30 Jul 2017 08:48:12 GMT

I've got a 6D which gets a lot of use. I was hopeful for the upgrade but after seeing the DR issues, I'm gonna hold off. Switching to Fuji seems is really tempting now.

Have you received the 6D2? It would be interesting to see identical RAW files from it and your 6D to compare. From some of the RAW files I've seen from dpreview, it also seems to have banding, which the 6D didn't suffer from.
It is a disappointment though, considering the 80D and 5D4 were on the right track with DR.
I think Canon is trying to push users who are in the know to spend the extra dough for a 5D4 and leave the 6D2 for less informed amateurs, but all they're doing is pissing us off and a lot have switched to Sony or Fuji.

Re: 6D MKII a disappointment???

skyking — Sun, 30 Jul 2017 12:36:59 GMT

I have not received the 6D. MKII yet. It arrives tomorrow (Monday). Like you I'm upgrading from my 6D. I don't want too switch to Sony Fuji, etc since I have so many EF and EFS Lens (I still have a T4I as another backup camera and used for some wild life shooting). I don't care about 4K as I have actual video cameras for that. I do agree that "testing" doesn't always tell the whole story. Make sure you read a couple of the earlier posts. We can get carried away sometimes especially with all the buzz is today is about "mirror-less" cameras. Every phtot pod cast I listen to tells you how much better a mirror-less camera is compared to a DSLR and of course thats not the truth.

BTW, I have been using, along with LR, On1 Raw's program. I am also messing with Affinity's Affinity Photo especially if Adobe starts to raise the subscription price.

At any rate I'll post something once I get the camera and try it out. I'm sure there will be a firmware update shortly after launch.

James

Re: 6D MKII a disappointment???

TTMartin — Sun, 30 Jul 2017 12:40:21 GMT

@Waddizzle wrote:

I think it is pretty rare that an image would be equally at or near saturation for both Blacks and Whites. They should be independent adjustments. I use Exposure [and Contrast] to make a symmetrical adjustment.

I use the Exposure adjustment to make the Black and White adjustments symmetrical. I do this as a way of standardizing the look and exposure of my photos. I was asked to give my processing tips on how to maximize the dynamic range of the Canon cameras that don't perform well on 'the test'. That's my intent, not to get into a contest with you and how you process your photos. You're happy with the dynamic range you get processing your way, then keep doing it your way. As I showed my way works even when having to push the exposure five (5) stops.

The point of all of this was other manufacturers and Canon now on some of their cameras like the 80D and 5D Mk IV bury some of the noise below the black point. Other Canon cameras like the 7D Mk II have a different black point which can on the surface appear to be noisier and have less dynamic range. By not baking in higher black point the camera is actually more useful to a broader range of photographers. Unfortunately, so many people like the poster above talking about going to Fuji, have given credence to 'the test' scores that Canon had to reduce the functionality of RAWs of some of their cameras like the 80D and 5D Mk IV to score well on 'the test'. I can guarantee you that the 6D Mk II sensor and the 5D Mk IV sensor have nearly identical dynamic range. The difference is the 5D Mk IV''s RAW file has been optimized like other manufacturers RAW files to score well on 'the test', and the 6D Mk II's RAW file has been left in its RAWer state so that it will appeal to those photographers that need that like those that do astrophotography.

Re: 6D MKII a disappointment???

Waddizzle — Sun, 30 Jul 2017 13:24:15 GMT

TTMartin,

No one is trying get into a contest. But, I do find your approach to be fundamentally flawed by assuming that the distribution of light is always symmetrical. Once glance at a histogram shows how varied, and asymmetrical, the distribution of light frequencies can be.

The image that you posted from an 80D using your approach was admittedly flawed when using your technique. I get great images from my 80D. I was only suggesting a different approach so as not wind up with flawed result, such as the one you posted.

Re: 6D MKII a disappointment???

TTMartin — Sun, 30 Jul 2017 14:35:56 GMT

@Waddizzle wrote:
TTMartin,

No one is trying get into a contest.

The image that you posted from an 80D using your approach was admittedly flawed when using your technique. I get great images from my 80D. I was only suggesting a different approach so as not wind up with flawed result, such as the one you posted.

I never posted an image from an 80D.

The only image I post was a five (5) stop underexposed image from a 7D Mk II that went from this before processing.

To this after processing

I have repeatedly said the technique doesn't work with an 80D because the 80D already bakes the noise clipping black point into the RAW file. Obviously you have missed the entire point to my post. So please just drop it.

Re: 6D MKII a disappointment???

derekmccoy — Sun, 30 Jul 2017 21:38:28 GMT

I'm sorry, but I fail to see the relevance of having equal opposite black and white points.
What I normally do to maximise DR is set my desired exposure, drop my highlights and raise my shadows to taste, then hold Shift and double click on both Whites and Blacks to bring them just below clipping point. I then hold alt and pull the blacks slightly further down to bury them and get true black.

And yes, that duck shot would have been far cleaner with an 80D (which is the respective equal improvement everyone was expecting from the 6D2).