topic Re: Help on moiré and noise on videos in EOS DSLR & Mirrorless Cameras

Help on moiré and noise on videos

amsportdesign — Mon, 23 Apr 2018 10:31:35 GMT

HI there,
I am new to videography with DSLR, I just bought a 700d to get myself on the learning track with both photos and videos.
Basically yesterday I went outside (as my aim is to make sports videos and travels) with the standard 18-55 lens aiming to try and learn the settings of my camera
After watching some tutorials I set up the camera as PAL 1920 x1080 25 fps / 1/50 / ISO 100 in sunny daylight. On camera was kind of ok, but once watched on my computer I noticed I was getting a lot of noise in my shadows, plus things like foliage, tiles, bricks, railings or any detailed pattern around were getting lots of moiré / aliasing effects.
I then noticed that these effects were less with a wide focal length, more with a closer one.

Following some tutorial suggestions I lowered the shutter speed to 1/40 and then to 1/30, then I went to set my picture scene to neutral and I lowered the sharpening at 0, same for contrast. Then I lowered just a bit the colors and saturation trying to obtain the flattest scene possible. As of the last thing I did put my WB in "sun" preset. The whole thing solved almost completely the moiré and but unfortunately, I could still see some aliasing here and there where the sun was hitting harder on roof or bricks in the background. The noise instead was still there in my shadow.

So I went testing the same scene with different f-stop (from 3.5 to 22) at different ISO (from 100 to 400) and even if it solved a bit at certain combinations, the noise and the aliasing were pretty much always there more or less.

Last thing last I repeated the whole test with my 50mm 1.8 and even if it was better, still was not smooth as it should be in my opinion.

Now, the questions I have are:
Is there anything I am missing, doing wrong?
Having the shutter speed that low could be a problem on fast moving (sports) scene / fast panning? If yes how can I address the issue without getting back the moiré / aliasing effect?
Are there any kind of antialiasing filters to help to solve the issue?
What can I do to reduce noise at maximum with my camera?

Anything you can suggest will be really appreciated, I would like to get the best out of this camera before considering anything different. Thanks a lot to anyone that will take the time to reply to this long post.

Re: Help on moiré and noise on videos

BurnUnit — Mon, 30 Apr 2018 20:48:29 GMT

I'm assuming that you're in a region of the world that uses the PAL broadcast standard, though I don't really know how that affects viewing on a computer monitor.

Noise issues in still photos are usually the result of shooting at high ISO and longer exposures in low light conditions. At 1/30 or 1/60 of a second at ISO 100 in daylight noise shouldn't be a problem though. Are you viewing raw video from the camera or have you converted the video to MPG, MP4 or some other format before viewing?

Re: Help on moiré and noise on videos

amsportdesign — Tue, 01 May 2018 07:41:03 GMT

oHI BurnUnit,
thanks for your reply here, finally someone did it.
I don't think choosing PAL rather than NTSC makes any difference on youtube videos or similar platforms, but will dig a bit more into it, never knows and anyway is always good to learn something more.

For the noise I think a better lens with a proper ND filter should solve most of the problem for my videos.
Regarding aliasing and moire, the only solution I found to get better results is to change the position of my camera till I find an angle where the sensor does not get the effect.

My camera is recording only in MOV, so my raw videos are in that format.

Re: Help on moiré and noise on videos

BurnUnit — Tue, 01 May 2018 21:41:23 GMT

So are you seeing the noise when you pause the video or when viewing at normal speed? What software are you using to view the video and have you tried it on another video player like VLC, Media Player Classic or Irfanview?

Do you have any kind of video editing software? It would be helpful if we could see even a 15 or 30 second segment of the affected video just to make sure that what you're seeing as "noise" is what we think of as "noise". I can't imagine a more upscale lens or using a ND filter is going to have much effect on a noise issue.

As for getting a moire pattern in your video sometimes just zooming slightly in or out might help reduce the problem.

Re: Help on moiré and noise on videos

amsportdesign — Tue, 01 May 2018 22:13:19 GMT

Hi. gosh, you made me thinking at something here.
I was previewing my footage with normal windows app coming with Win 10, called Films & Tv.
I am using Adobe Premiere for my footage but I didn't watch the footage with Pr honestly. And now you made me thinking I should have done that probably.

Will try to do the same test footage during the weekend, it should be sunny (hopefully) here in Uk and see what happens with noise and moire.

Thanks for your suggestion, will post again soon.

Re: Help on moiré and noise on videos

Joak — Wed, 02 May 2018 02:36:01 GMT

I just logged on because I had noise questions too...in video.

I pretty much never exceed an ISO of 100. And definitely nothing over 200. I shoot with Rokinon prime lenses and the 50mm (all decent, fast apertures). And I still get all kinds of noise in low light.

I shot some quick video of my fiancé in the doorway around dusk. I also shot a quick bit while at work under a street light. Still a bunch of noise. Is it the camera or what?

I would like to be able to shoot nice sharp night scenes that don’t involve me carrying lights around.

What am I doing wrong?

Re: Help on moiré and noise on videos

BurnUnit — Wed, 02 May 2018 03:09:13 GMT

Well if you're in the UK you're right to be shooting in PAL then.

If you're in the mood to experiment a bit more try shooting some still shots at 100 ISO at 1/30 and 1/60 second. Shoot a scene similar to the video you shot at close to the same lighting. Then see if you notice noise in the same areas of the photos as in your videos.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAhN57lFn7A

I've shot a little video with my 60D and even at 1600 ISO I was pleasantly surprised with how clean the results were. This was shot with the 18-200 Canon kit lens... Nothing too fancy there.

Re: Help on moiré and noise on videos

amsportdesign — Thu, 10 May 2018 21:12:04 GMT

Hi again,
so I did my assignment during the weekend. I made two real quick videos while outside to show you what is happening to me and what I mean for noise, aliasing and moiré problems.

First video https://youtu.be/nL9xnJhY1Zs. Look at railing and bricks for aliasing and moiré. Look at the shadow down the balcony for the noise. You have setup indication on screen.

Second video https://youtu.be/qCbCuYF6DK0 it was shot at Sherwood forest, setup indication at the beginning and problems highlight during the video.

I know that particular colors, geometric patterns, and foliage are more subjects to get these effects but I would like to understand If there is anything more than what I have tried to get out of these situations.
I see around many videos from same camera and even way better ones with similar issues so I know I am not alone here.
Any good suggestions will be much appreciated.

Re: Help on moiré and noise on videos

Waddizzle — Thu, 10 May 2018 23:41:29 GMT

I think you might be pixel peeping too much.

I suggest that you always take a number of stills when you do a shoot. The stills can also serve as WB references. I also suggest that you consider the resolution of video. Take a couple of stills at the camera’s highest resolution. Next, dial the resolution down to be comparable to HD video, and then compare the results of the two stills.

Re: Help on moiré and noise on videos

amsportdesign — Fri, 11 May 2018 07:55:47 GMT

@Waddizzle wrote:
I think you might be pixel peeping too much.

Ahahahah thanks for your reply, I see your opinion here.

I appreciate your suggestions about taking still photos first, is something I do regularly for the WB.
Regarding comparing stills to actually see the downsample result, I think I understand where you want to bring the discussion here.

The thing is, I know why cameras are creating the moiré/aliasing effect, what I do not know is how expert people tackle the issue, what kind of solutions "pros" are putting in place to have smooth, not pixelated videos published. Clean videos are out there, lots are taken with my same camera, meaning it is possible. What I am asking here is HOW. That's it.

If anybody has real tips or good suggestions, pro suggestions on how to tackle the issue, will be much appreciated.
I can see that from my i-mac screen the issue are a bit less visible than from my BenQ screen at home, but still the image look like a real low quality one, worst than my phone, so there must be a solution somewhere.

Thanks to anybody

Re: Help on moiré and noise on videos

kvbarkley — Fri, 11 May 2018 12:49:33 GMT

The solution the pros use is more light.

Re: Help on moiré and noise on videos

amsportdesign — Fri, 11 May 2018 12:58:59 GMT

@kvbarkley wrote:
The solution the pros use is more light.

I see. Really interesting answer.
Can you please tell me how to create more light when I am shooting outdoor, a landscape scene, panning on a nice tree line during a clear sunny day?

Thanks.

Re: Help on moiré and noise on videos

RobertTheFat — Fri, 11 May 2018 13:03:13 GMT

@amsportdesign wrote:
@Waddizzle wrote:
I think you might be pixel peeping too much.
Ahahahah thanks for your reply, I see your opinion here.

I appreciate your suggestions about taking still photos first, is something I do regularly for the WB.
Regarding comparing stills to actually see the downsample result, I think I understand where you want to bring the discussion here.

The thing is, I know why cameras are creating the moiré/aliasing effect, what I do not know is how expert people tackle the issue, what kind of solutions "pros" are putting in place to have smooth, not pixelated videos published. Clean videos are out there, lots are taken with my same camera, meaning it is possible. What I am asking here is HOW. That's it.

If anybody has real tips or good suggestions, pro suggestions on how to tackle the issue, will be much appreciated.
I can see that from my i-mac screen the issue are a bit less visible than from my BenQ screen at home, but still the image look like a real low quality one, worst than my phone, so there must be a solution somewhere.

Thanks to anybody

If I'm reading your posts correctly, you're shooting your videos with a low-end kit lens on a 700D. I don't shoot video, so forgive me if this comment is out of place. But I will opine, with considerable confidence, that only a minuscule number of professional sports and travel videos are shot with a kit lens on a 700D. If you're not getting the results you've seen the pros get, I suggest you begin by assessing the suitability of your equipment.

Re: Help on moiré and noise on videos

Joak — Fri, 11 May 2018 14:10:56 GMT

See, I’ve heard the opposite. The true mark of a good photographer or cinematographer is their ability create great footage no matter what gear they are using. A good photographer can take a “low-end” kit lens and create gold.

Obviously there are certain limitations when it comes to different lenses, cameras, etc of varying quality. But, as a rule, the gear is only one part of the formula. I’m no pro, but I’ve heard this mantra preached over and over again.

And it applies to other things as well. One of the bows that I use for hunting is maybe a couple hundred bucks...bare. But I put a $250.00 sight on it. I also have a $2,500.00 bow. And both are essentially useless if I don’t know how to tune and shoot them.

Now, if I can still piggyback off the OP, I have noticed some noise issues (slight, but enough to annoy me). And it’s probably something I’m doing wrong.
...or maybe it’s my “lower-end” camera. I don’t know.

I use Rokinon Cine lenses and the Rebel T5. Aside from adding light, what else Can I do to reduce noise?

As I mentioned before, I did some tests of my fiancé standing in the doorway as the sun was going down. I turned on the lamp on a table by the door in an attempt to introduce more light. I still had noise in the shirt she was wearing.

Aperture was wide open, ISO was only at 100, ss at 50. Even when I (think) I have my exposure pretty much nailed, I still see noise and (artifact?).

Re: Help on moiré and noise on videos

amsportdesign — Fri, 11 May 2018 14:16:25 GMT

If I'm reading your posts correctly, you're shooting your videos with a low-end kit lens on a 700D. I don't shoot video, so forgive me if this comment is out of place. But I will opine, with considerable confidence, that only a minuscule number of professional sports and travel videos are shot with a kit lens on a 700D. If you're not getting the results you've seen the pros get, I suggest you begin by assessing the suitability of your equipment.

Dear friend, there are way better cameras than mine out there making the same aliasing/moiré issue.

For example here is a video made by a professional talking about the 5d MK2 having the same problem.
It explains why DSLR cameras are having the issue and how this company decided to solve the problem by making a filter to use directly on top of the sensor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYmL53LzURI&t=47s
This is a good solution, available for my camera as well, but before to spend 300$ on a filter I thought to come here and ask for the help of someone who had experienced the same problem and maybe can give me some good tips.

For the rest, I was not saying that pros are using a 700d and a kit lens to make their professional videos, I was saying that many people are using my same camera for their videos, getting good-enough results like this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2urjFrcX7bs. No aliasing, no moire, no noise. and then I was asking for suggestions, tips, whatever from anybody including professionals.
Please avoid to answer if you are not aware of the problem, you do not have experience with shooting videos, trying to take the piss out of people like me. Not necessary, not useful, not required. Sorry but you are the third one here, trying to imply things not required.

Now, having said that, does anybody knows how to help me to avoid to get these problems in my footage please?

Re: Help on moiré and noise on videos

BurnUnit — Fri, 11 May 2018 17:52:10 GMT

I think your sample clips were shot under somewhat challenging conditions as far as lighting goes. There's a wide dynamic range and a lot of high contrast areas that helps magnify some of the imperfections you're seeing. I suspect that shooting under more even lighting will give you more pleasing results.

Also, this paragraph from the DPReview site caught my attention. It referred to the 700D/T6i specifically but would affect other cameras as well.

"The STM designation is of particular interest to video shooters as it has the potential for quiet autofocus and improved AF speed. Those familiar with using just about any camcorder are accustomed to smooth and reasonably accurate autofocus, while the average SLR focuses slowly (indeed previous Rebels only focused when prompted by the user). Because an SLR can't use its phase-detect sensor while in Live View and video modes, the camera is usually left to struggle with contrast-detect autofocus. And, because non-STM lenses aren't designed with this focus method or for this purpose, the results were often jerky shifts in focus with focus motor noise audible on the video's sound track. Older Rebels were even known to gain up exposure during video if you asked them to focus."

Something else you might try. If you aren't already, and you're shooting from a tripod, turn off image stabilization and auto-focus just in case the camera is "hunting" and trying to make some unnecessary adjustments. Manually focus on your subject and if you can keep the lens stopped down a little it should give you a fair amount of DOF.

Also, I'm not familiar with Adobe Premier. But Corel Video Studio allows you to control some settings depending on your choice of saved file format. Saving as an MP4, I believe, allows a choice of bit rates which will affect the amount of compression applied.

A lower bit rate will give you a "watchable" video for Youtube and a smaller file size with some visible compression. A higher bit rate will give you noticeably better quality and a much larger file size as well taking longer to render after editing. You might want to save a bit of time by using a short 1 or 2 minute clip and processing it at different bit rates to find a good balance between video quality and file size.

Re: Help on moiré and noise on videos

RobertTheFat — Fri, 11 May 2018 18:10:58 GMT

@amsportdesign wrote:
If I'm reading your posts correctly, you're shooting your videos with a low-end kit lens on a 700D. I don't shoot video, so forgive me if this comment is out of place. But I will opine, with considerable confidence, that only a minuscule number of professional sports and travel videos are shot with a kit lens on a 700D. If you're not getting the results you've seen the pros get, I suggest you begin by assessing the suitability of your equipment.
Dear friend, there are way better cameras than mine out there making the same aliasing/moiré issue.
For example here is a video made by a professional talking about the 5d MK2 having the same problem.
It explains why DSLR cameras are having the issue and how this company decided to solve the problem by making a filter to use directly on top of the sensor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYmL53LzURI&t=47s
This is a good solution, available for my camera as well, but before to spend 300$ on a filter I thought to come here and ask for the help of someone who had experienced the same problem and maybe can give me some good tips.

For the rest, I was not saying that pros are using a 700d and a kit lens to make their professional videos, I was saying that many people are using my same camera for their videos, getting good-enough results like this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2urjFrcX7bs. No aliasing, no moire, no noise. and then I was asking for suggestions, tips, whatever from anybody including professionals.
Please avoid to answer if you are not aware of the problem, you do not have experience with shooting videos, trying to take the piss out of people like me. Not necessary, not useful, not required. Sorry but you are the third one here, trying to imply things not required.

Now, having said that, does anybody knows how to help me to avoid to get these problems in my footage please?

Those who want to brag about their technique downplay the effect of better equipment. Those who know their technique isn't very good buy better equipment and brag (or complain) about that.

My position has always been that better equipment makes any photographer better. How much better depends on how good you already are. The better you already are, the more difference better equipment makes.

Re: Help on moiré and noise on videos

amsportdesign — Fri, 11 May 2018 19:05:01 GMT

@BurnUnit I was literally looking forward to your answer here.
I love and appreciate you taking the time to write such a long reply. Thanks a lot.

Going through it,
"I suspect that shooting under more even lighting will give you more pleasing results."
generally speaking for sure shooting at a better light will be no arm aiming for better quality, especially thinking at the first video sample I made for you, I think you are definitely right, but still as I was saying in other posts above, there are people using my same camera with even lower light condition and it works just fine, I just need to talk to them to discover how they do it.

"Older Rebels were even known to gain up exposure during video if you asked them to focus.... Manually focus on your subject and if you can keep the lens stopped down a little it should give you a fair amount of DOF."

I was not aware of the exposure gaining for older models in autofocus, this is a good one to know.
I definitely have in my list to learn to focus manually. At the moment I find it a bit difficult when using photo lenses (not cine) because the ring is so sensible and does not have a stop. That's why I have In my shopping list a follow focus, that should help together with a rig or handheld stabilizer to deal with this whole thing. This is a really good tips, thanks.

About the bit rate you're right again will definitely dig more into it.

My good news is that while I was looking for videos to use as an example of a good shot (for me), I found this guy on youtube making these beautiful videos using my same camera. Of course he is been asked with similar questions in the comments, and he replied with some suggestions including the ntsc/pal choice, we were talking at the beginning of this conversation here.
Looks like he is using ntsc 1080 p30 to record (and then slowing it down to 80% or change it to p24 when editing), together with a free Technicolor Cinestyle picture profile (directly installed on camera). I have asked him about my questions, and waiting for the reply.

In the mean time I think I will try to shoot something with his settings, including the color profile and see what happen.
Then when editing for sure I will spend some time testing out the bitrate as you suggested.

Thanks for the help BurnUnit...much much appreciated.

Re: Help on moiré and noise on videos

BurnUnit — Sun, 13 May 2018 04:17:31 GMT

@amsportdesign wrote:

...I think you are definitely right, but still as I was saying in other posts above, there are people using my same camera with even lower light condition and it works just fine, I just need to talk to them to discover how they do it.

Looks like he is using ntsc 1080 p30 to record (and then slowing it down to 80% or change it to p24 when editing), together with a free Technicolor Cinestyle picture profile (directly installed on camera). I have asked him about my questions, and waiting for the reply.
Just to clarify. You need sufficient lighting for good results, but my suggestion was for more even lighting. More of an issue of "quality" of light as opposed to the sheer "quantity" of light. Maybe try shooting some in open shade or with overcast skies. Manually set your exposure and focus, keep the aperture closed down a bit and get closer to your subjects to fill the field of view more like in the sample videos you posted.

I wouldn't load any third-party profiles into the camera, at least not yet. You don't need to add any more variables while you're trying to troubleshoot your video quality. I'm curious to know if you see any improvement between shooting PAL or NTSC. I'd suspect it might only make a difference if viewed on the wrong standard of TV.

Re: Help on moiré and noise on videos

amsportdesign — Sun, 13 May 2018 18:54:09 GMT

Practice make perfect they say, so...I went out yesterday trying to practicing my manual focus skills and testing all the stuff we were talking about here. Plus, during the last few days, I have watched tons of videos and tuts, and I want to share what I have learned so far by applying tips from many people (including you @BurnUNit) and taking action on some observation I made watching other videos. Maybe is helpful to someone in my same situation and I am happy to help anybody to avoid the same struggle.

_ lots of videos out there have aliasing or noise here and there, you are not alone.
_ for wider shots the best way to get away from aliasing and moiré is to have the camera fixed, no panning. The more you move the camera moving, the more you can see these kinds of trouble coming

_ USE A FLAT COLOUR PRESET, I have downloaded the technicolor cinestyle and it works way better than without. If you do not want to download anything at least set one of your custom profile with the lowest possible sharpness. 80% of aliasing and moiré is caused by the sharpness sensitivity of your camera. No worry you can get it back later in post, but while shooting put it as lower as you can, put all the rest to 0..colors ecc..). I did try both (cinestyle and custom made) and the cinestyle is better because somehow it retain a bit more details in the shadows in my opinion, but it's all up to your choice really.
_ use a faster lens if you can, more light means less noise, even outside, even on a sunny day. Remember to get a ND filter if you shoot outside to get back some f. stops and get a better exposure. Even an extremely cheap one like my yongnuo 50 mm does a good job with that. Than you can take action on the noise on post production, easy.
_take some still shots before shooting the video, checking the results will help you with the WB and most of all to decide how many ISO to use. Remember the more ISO the more noise. Personally I put a rule here to myself to don't go over 1600.
_ NTSC/PAL does not make a big difference honestly, in my case (with a 700d) the only difference is a wider choice on frame rate, that's it.
_ shutter speed. The rule of thumb says should be double the frame rate. 24/25p =1/50 - 30p = 1/60 . BUT more often than not, you can help your camera coping a bit better with aliasing/moiré/and light flickering by slowing down a bit the shutter speed. NEVER GO FASTER than the double or the picture will look choppy. You want a bit of blur in the movements so keep it double if you can, go slower if needed.

_ in my case using manual focus rather than auto, helps a lot. First because in the 700d the autofocus on video is not great, second because you can cheat a bit the game by focusing on some particular and get all the rest shallow. What is defocused of course does not get these bad effects.

Having said that, here is a short video I made yesterday practicing on MF and testing all these things. It's not perfect as I would like to, but way better than before in my opinion. https://youtu.be/8piBVE1OQME.
I didn't apply any denoising here, my interest now is to experiment as much as possible with the ISO and f stops to get less noise possible in the original footage. The better the original, the less editing I have to do. Then of course if really needed we can deal with that in post.

Next step is to do some indoor / sport footages. I might discover something new and so keep looking at this post, if interested because honestly I think this should be the aim of a community and not what I have seen from some people during this conversation.

Thanks.