topic ALO & HTP - Where can I get educated? in EOS DSLR & Mirrorless Cameras

ALO & HTP - Where can I get educated?

PajamaGuy — Thu, 21 Jan 2016 20:30:44 GMT

I know, I know - I'm an idiot and not worthy because I do shoot JPG. There, I said it! So anyhow, in June on a Saturday at noon, under a cloudless sky, could ALO or HTP help me extend the dynamic range so that the shadowed face of the base runner isn't so dark without blowing out his white pants?

Does anyone have a good source for information on how to use these two adjustments?

Thanks!

Re: ALO & HTP - Where can I get educated?

TTMartin — Thu, 21 Jan 2016 20:52:26 GMT

Canon's Digital Learning Center is a good place to start.

Auto Lighting Optimizer

Canon Quick Tips: Highlight Tone Priority

Of course a Google search will provide more information than you would ever want to know.

Do you have a specific question on how either one works?

Re: ALO & HTP - Where can I get educated?

PajamaGuy — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 13:00:43 GMT

Thanks TT, I guess I'll have to experiment. Looks like ALO can be applied in DPP without having it turned on in-camera.

Re: ALO & HTP - Where can I get educated?

TTMartin — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 13:06:58 GMT

@PajamaGuy wrote:
Thanks TT, I guess I'll have to experiment. Looks like ALO can be applied in DPP without having it turned on in-camera.

If you are shooting JPG you would need to turn it on in camera.

Re: ALO & HTP - Where can I get educated?

ebiggs1 — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 16:16:42 GMT

DSLR sensors can capture a wide range of brightness values (EV), as with everything there is a limit. If you have a scene that has a wider DR than the camera can capture, you have a problem.

A DSLR has an exposure compensation feature. It enables you to shift the histogram left or right along the scale to ensure that either the highlights or the shadows aren't clipped, but you can't increase or decrease the DR itself.

Canon’s Auto Lighting Optimizer brightens up shadow areas for a boost in the recorded dynamic range.

HDR (High Dynamic Range) can actually increase the cameras (effective) DR. Instead of trying to put all the dynamic range of a scene into one exposure, HDR uses several identical images to be recorded at different exposure value levels.

The shot below is impossible normally. But using HDR it is quite doable.

Re: ALO & HTP - Where can I get educated?

ebiggs1 — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 16:16:14 GMT

"... could ALO or HTP help me extend the dynamic range so that the shadowed face of the base runner isn't so dark without blowing out his white pants?"

To answer that specific question, my opinion is, no, it will not. You can't increase DR, you can only shift it. I know you said you shoot jpg which is your choice but if you shot in RAW, I would expose for the bright white pants. Then see if I could recover any detail in the shadowed face. It is usually best to expose for the highlights or the brightest ares of a scene.

Re: ALO & HTP - Where can I get educated?

PajamaGuy — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 17:40:47 GMT

Thanks - If I could convince the moving ball, bat, and batter to hold still for three-tenths of a second, I surely would shoot HDR.

I'll shoot some RAW and see what happens!

Re: ALO & HTP - Where can I get educated?

ebiggs1 — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 19:44:13 GMT

Yes, HDR would be a trick with a running baseball player!

Do you have a post editor? Which one? Can you send me a sample of a photo you are concerned with?

Re: ALO & HTP - Where can I get educated?

TTMartin — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 19:56:07 GMT

@PajamaGuy wrote:
Thanks - If I could convince the moving ball, bat, and batter to hold still for three-tenths of a second, I surely would shoot HDR.
I'll shoot some RAW and see what happens!

You'll be surprised with proper post processing technique how much dynamic range modern Canon cameras like the 6D and 7D Mk II actually have when shooting RAW. You can push 3-4 stops without much effort at all, so as long as your photo is properly exposed you've got plenty of dynamic range for any outdoor sports.

Re: ALO & HTP - Where can I get educated?

PajamaGuy — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 21:21:26 GMT

Thanks - I don't have any single pic. For this outdoor sports season I've upgraded to 7D2, 70-200 f/2.8 IS II, and I just ordered a 1.4x III extender. I use PSP X8 with the Perfectly Clear v2 plugin. You can see some of my stuff at GrampyPhoto.SmugMug.com.

I know about the EV sliding the histogram, but figured ALO and HTP were put there for a reason in addition to the EV adjustment. So I'm trying to learn/understand what they'll do and when to use them. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like most in-camera stuff happens "after" the image hits the sensor, therefore the attraction of shooting RAW and being able to selectively apply what the camera would have applied to produce the JPG. And if it all happens in-camera after the image hits the sensor, all of those "things" could be replicated in post. (which is why I disagree with Mr. Martin that ALO must be "turned on" to be able to apply/adjust it in DPP)

So if I can get the camera to apply the same "tweaks" that I'd apply to a RAW, I can publish the JPGs for the soccer moms a bit sooner. (although I may change my mind...)

I can mask the faces within the football helmets and bring them up ok, but if there was an in-camera function which did the same - why not use it?

All that to say that before the outdoor season starts, I'd like to learn as much as I can to produce better images.

Re: ALO & HTP - Where can I get educated?

TTMartin — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 21:29:26 GMT

@PajamaGuy wrote:

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like most in-camera stuff happens "after" the image hits the sensor, therefore the attraction of shooting RAW and being able to selectively apply what the camera would have applied to produce the JPG. And if it all happens in-camera after the image hits the sensor, all of those "things" could be replicated in post. (which is why I disagree with Mr. Martin that ALO must be "turned on" to be able to apply/adjust it in DPP)

That is correct if you are shooting RAW it doesn't matter if ALO is on or off.

Since you had previously stated you were a JPG shooter. What I said was if you are shooting JPG it does matter if ALO is on or off.

Re: ALO & HTP - Where can I get educated?

PajamaGuy — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 21:32:25 GMT

I thought so, but in DPP I CAN adjust ALO in JPGs, and I do not have it turned on. My subsequent question to Canon would be, "Are the same algorithms applied in DPP that are applied in-camera?"

Re: ALO & HTP - Where can I get educated?

ebiggs1 — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 21:43:24 GMT

"... I disagree with Mr. Martin that ALO must be "turned on" to be able to apply/adjust it in DPP)"

He is right. A jpg is permanently altered as the jpg it is saved. It is only filed in the data tag of a RAW. Your computer or post editor applies these tag file settings. RAW files really get very little done to their main file. You are correct in that the camera can't do anything, and likely less, that you can in PS or LR. Especially if it is a RAW file.

Personally I don't use either ALO or HTP. I much prefer to do it my self in post. My guess is none of my buds use them either.

The camera can't mask anything. It can only shift the histogram one way or the other.

One other word, with LR or PS or PSE the import of a RAW files is automatic. It requires nothing form you. You really won't know the difference of u/l a jpg or a RAW. There isn't any additional steps or anything that will take extra time. That only comes when you want to alter the photo. You might want to revisit using RAW.

Re: ALO & HTP - Where can I get educated?

ebiggs1 — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 21:48:04 GMT

"Are the same algorithms applied in DPP that are applied in-camera?"

It may be the same routine but you are applying it to an already altered jpg. The jpg got all the settings you specified in your menus. Now you import into DPP and do additional tweaks. Sometimes it may work. Sometimes not. No matter what it can't deliver the best photo.

Re: ALO & HTP - Where can I get educated?

PajamaGuy — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 10:29:47 GMT

@ebiggs1 wrote:
The camera can't mask anything. It can only shift the histogram one way or the other.

So, what then is ALO or HTP, and why have them? Or could one say that EV "slides" the entire histogram while ALO adjusts the left end?

...and I understand that in-camera ALO adjusts the image and is then a permanent part of the JPG - my point is only that if the ALO algorithm is the same in both the camera AND within DPP one can apply ALO to a JPG even when one hasn't turned it on in-camera. Of course if the algorithms are different - all bets are off.

Re: ALO & HTP - Where can I get educated?

TTMartin — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 13:15:44 GMT

@PajamaGuy wrote:
I thought so, but in DPP I CAN adjust ALO in JPGs, and I do not have it turned on. My subsequent question to Canon would be, "Are the same algorithms applied in DPP that are applied in-camera?"

In DPP 3 you could not use ALO on JPGs it was greyed out. On DPP 4 you can, but, you have to understand that when JPGs are saved color information is lost.

These photos by Michael Reichmann from the website Luminous Landscape illustrate this.

The original photo as taken.

The image pushed from a JPG

The image pushed from a RAW

As you can see the color information in the blue shirt was lost as grey when it was saved into a JPG. In the RAW file the blue channel color information was retained.

Re: ALO & HTP - Where can I get educated?

ebiggs1 — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 14:18:26 GMT

"... you have to understand that when JPGs are saved color information is lost."

Grampy,

This is exactly my point. And this occurs each and every time you save a jpg.

Re: ALO & HTP - Where can I get educated?

PajamaGuy — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 15:39:48 GMT

Many thanks to both of you! I played with an old T3i image I'd taken as JPG & RAW - and I like the result from the RAW much better.

I'm going to be shooting some indoor grandkid basketball in about an hour (and the very uneven lighting in this gym really sucks!) - so I'll save the shots both ways and see what I can accomplish in post.

Re: ALO & HTP - Where can I get educated?

ebiggs1 — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 15:47:54 GMT

Remember, location, location and location.. Way more important that anything else.

Re: ALO & HTP - Where can I get educated?

TTMartin — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 16:52:25 GMT

@PajamaGuy wrote:
Many thanks to both of you! I played with an old T3i image I'd taken as JPG & RAW - and I like the result from the RAW much better.

I'm going to be shooting some indoor grandkid basketball in about an hour (and the very uneven lighting in this gym really sucks!) - so I'll save the shots both ways and see what I can accomplish in post.

Be sure the Flicker compensation on your 7D Mk II is turned on. This ensures that your photos are taken when lighting is at it's peak. Many lights pulsate at the frequency of the AC electricity. Too fast for your eyes to see, but, slow enough for higher shutter speeds to be affected.