topic Re: Looking to bring my phtotgraphy to the next level in EOS DSLR & Mirrorless Cameras

Looking to bring my phtotgraphy to the next level

bethanyanna — Tue, 30 Jun 2015 17:33:38 GMT

I have always enjoyed photography. I can't remember a time in my life when I didn't have a camera!
I currently have a point and shoot Sony Cybershot. It does good, for what it is. But now that I have children, I really want to hone my skills. I can take decent stills and landscapes all day long, but I want to get nice portraits without having to pay a photographer.

So I've been doing some research, and I think I've narrowed my search to the Canon EOS 7D. It seems to have gotten pretty good reviews, and it looks like it would be a nice middle of the road camera to get my feet wet with.

I think I read that it shoots in RAW, but I honestly am not going to even pretend that I know what that means. lol

So before I go drop a grand on a camera, I would love some feedback!

Thanks for the help!!

Re: Looking to bring my phtotgraphy to the next level

ebiggs1 — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 13:28:33 GMT

I had two EOS 7D's. They helped me make a living. I am retired now so I sold down a lot of stuff so I don't have them any longer. But I can tell you, they are mighty fine cameras. They are the lirst level to a full on pro body.

If I were you, I would look for a deal on the 7D and a white box EF 24-105mm f4L lens. You will likely need a little wider lens for your "decent stills and landscapes". Possibly a EF-s 10-22mm. The camera and thoes two lenses would be a killer combo. Plus you need not buy all at once.

Do not let any internet keyboard jockey tell you the 7D deosn't do portraits. It does and very well. Also don't let that same knuckelhead tell you it won't do landscapes. It does and very well.

I prefer to use 'angle of view' over millmeters in describing lenses. However most don't. As long as the AOV matches the photo will be the same. No matter the camera. This spec is easy to find on any lens.

As to using RAW, I use it entirely. I never shoot jpg. Even in my G15 P&S, I shoot RAW. RAW is the uncompressed complete data the camera captuers. Except for tif, all the rest compress data and than delete it. What this means, is your high dollar camera/lens is giving you full data and then you are throwing it in the trash before you ever get to see it. That's jpg!

However, RAW requires post processing. You will get DPP software free with the EOS 7D. It will do the processing for you with very little input from you. But it will allow you to do far greater "fixing" as you see fit. Plus there are better post editors out there, not free, that do even more. Lightroom and/or Photoshop or PS Elements for example. If you are serious you must learn one of these. Great photos are 1/2 camera/lens, 1/2 post editing and 1/2 you. Yes it does add up as you will learn and may not always be in that order.

Go for it, it's gonna be fun.............

Re: Looking to bring my phtotgraphy to the next level

TTMartin — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 12:40:44 GMT

@bethanyanna wrote:
I have always enjoyed photography. I can't remember a time in my life when I didn't have a camera!
I currently have a point and shoot Sony Cybershot. It does good, for what it is. But now that I have children, I really want to hone my skills. I can take decent stills and landscapes all day long, but I want to get nice portraits without having to pay a photographer.

So I've been doing some research, and I think I've narrowed my search to the Canon EOS 7D. It seems to have gotten pretty good reviews, and it looks like it would be a nice middle of the road camera to get my feet wet with.
I think I read that it shoots in RAW, but I honestly am not going to even pretend that I know what that means. lol

So before I go drop a grand on a camera, I would love some feedback!

Thanks for the help!!

For a general use camera I would choose the 70D over the classic 7D. The 70D is very close to the classic 7D in its performance feature (fps, 19 focus points, etc) and adds some nice features for general use like the tilt swivel touch screen, much finer more even noise characteristics, and Dual Pixel AF for video.

As for lenses, Canon really upped the image quality when the updated their consumer lenses with the STM motor. The STM lens line matches the image quality of the first generation IS L lenses. No reason to look any further than the STM lenses. In fact the STM lens line is one of the big reasons to choose Canon over other brands, no one else offers that level of image quality at the same price level.

Re: Looking to bring my phtotgraphy to the next level

bethanyanna — Tue, 07 Jul 2015 15:11:55 GMT

"If I were you, I would look for a deal on the 7D and a white box EF 24-105mm f4L lens. You will likely need a little wider lens for your "decent stills and landscapes". Possibly a EF-s 10-22mm. The camera and thoes two lenses would be a killer combo. Plus you need not buy all at once"

So would it be bad if I just started with the 28-135 mm Kit that comes on the camera out of the box first? Which lens would gain me the most usability when it comes to portraits?

"For a general use camera I would choose the 70D over the classic 7D"

... that's kinda the point... I'm not looking for something general use. I really looking to bring my photography to the "next level". I'm looking to be able to create professional quality portraits.

Re: Looking to bring my phtotgraphy to the next level

TCampbell — Tue, 07 Jul 2015 15:40:31 GMT

You specifically mentioned wanting something nicer for portraits. Of course any camera can take a "portrait" (even a phone), so when someone mentions wanting something "nicer" it occurs to me that you might be thinking of the effect in which the subject has tack-sharp focus and yet the background is beautifully blurred.

If this is what you had in mind when you said you wanted nicer portraits, then lens selection certainly factors into the results. The effect is created as long as the camera has a reasonably large image sensor (due to the physics of how it works, you can't get much of this blurred background effect if the sensor is tiny.) You also need a lens with a long-ish focal length (wide angles can't produce much of the effect) and it should also have a low "focal ratio" (This is the size of the opening in the lens through which the light can travel as compared to the overall focal length of the lens. If a lens can provide a focal ratio of say, f/4, ten it means that the focal length is four times longer than the aperture diameter.)

A 50mm lens can do this, but the effect isn't particularly strong. It's much stronger with an 85mm lens and anything over 100mm does very well -- and all of this assumes a low focal ratio. One of my favorites is my EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM with the focal length out near 200mm and the focal ratio down near f/2.8 or f/4. I also use an EF 135mm f/2 lens which has an intensely strong effect.

The variable focal ratio zooms (like the 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6) don't have a very strong effect because as you zoom to the longer focal lengths, the focal ratio increases to f/5.6 -- which isn't very low.

The EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM can do this, but you'll need to zoom to the 105mm focal length, use the f/4 aperture (at f/4) place your subject very close to the camera, and make sure the background is quite a bit beyond your focused subject. The longer the focal length of the lens and the lower the focal ratio, the stronger the effect is.

7D vs. 70D wont effect the look of the image. The cameras will handle differently but they both have the same sensor size. The 70D is better at video (if you're interested in using your camera for video -- some people don't use video. I am one of those people who have really only switched on video mode once or twice just to toy with it, but I really don't use it.)

Re: Looking to bring my phtotgraphy to the next level

jazzman1 — Tue, 07 Jul 2015 16:21:56 GMT

@TCampbell wrote:
You specifically mentioned wanting something nicer for portraits. Of course any camera can take a "portrait" (even a phone), so when someone mentions wanting something "nicer" it occurs to me that you might be thinking of the effect in which the subject has tack-sharp focus and yet the background is beautifully blurred.

A 50mm lens can do this, but the effect isn't particularly strong. It's much stronger with an 85mm lens and anything over 100mm does very well -- and all of this assumes a low focal ratio. One of my favorites is my EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM with the focal length out near 200mm and the focal ratio down near f/2.8 or f/4. I also use an EF 135mm f/2 lens which has an intensely strong effect.

The variable focal ratio zooms (like the 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6) don't have a very strong effect because as you zoom to the longer focal lengths, the focal ratio increases to f/5.6 -- which isn't very low.

The EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM can do this, but you'll need to zoom to the 105mm focal length, use the f/4 aperture (at f/4) place your subject very close to the camera, and make sure the background is quite a bit beyond your focused subject. The longer the focal length of the lens and the lower the focal ratio, the stronger the effect is.

Tim thanks much, you've stated this subject in plain terms that I now clearly understand. And I had no idea my 24-105L f4 was good for portraits. I thought my 50mm f1.4 was better.

Re: Looking to bring my phtotgraphy to the next level

ebiggs1 — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 13:54:29 GMT

"So would it be bad if I just started with the 28-135 mm Kit that comes on the camera out of the box first? Which lens would gain me the most usability when it comes to portraits?

"For a general use camera I would choose the 70D over the classic 7D"

... that's kinda the point... I'm not looking for something general use. I really looking to bring my photography to the "next level". I'm looking to be able to create professional quality portraits."

Let's take these in order. The EF28-135mm is a fine lens and you can be happy with it forever. The EF 24-105mm f4 is a better lens. The big difference is the build quality. The latter is a "L" lens and designed as a pro level lens. Either will do a good job on portraits.

The which one do you choose, the 70D over the 7D is also basicly down to build quality. The 7D is built more like a pro body. The 70D is a enthusists level camera. Of course there are some features that each bring to the table but the photos, or portraits, either produces will be similar.

"I'm looking to be able to create professional quality portraits."

A point that has been over looked is the crop factor. A 50mm lens on either camera will appear like a 80mm lens does. If you are going to use millimeters a the measureing factor, you must multiply it by 1.6x. 50mm x 1.6 = 80mm. This menas the 50mm lens will do a fine job for portraits on the 70D or 7D. Likewise the 28-135mm or the 24-105mm has 50mm inside its zoom range! Right? Except for the wider aperture they will provide the exact same picture as the 'prime' 50mm does.

A 70-200mm does not include 50mm does it? It will be too long for use on a 70D or 7D for portraits.

The bottom line is the 70D and the 28-135mm will do as you want. If you feel you want a more pro level built in your camera the 7D and 24-105mm is the choice. The results of either combo is going to be very similar. IMHO, I would go for thr 7D and EF2 24-105mm f4 but that is me.

Re: Looking to bring my phtotgraphy to the next level

RobertTheFat — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 14:15:04 GMT

@ebiggs1 wrote:
A point that has been over looked is the crop factor. A 50mm lens on either camera will appear like a 80mm lens does. If you are going to use millimeters a the measureing factor, you must multiply it by 1.6x. 50mm x 1.6 = 80mm. This menas the 50mm lens will do a fine job for portraits on the 70D or 7D. Likewise the 28-135mm or the 24-105mm has 50mm inside its zoom range! Right? Except for the wider aperture they will provide the exact same picture as the 'prime' 50mm does.
A 70-200mm does not include 50mm does it? It will be too long for use on a 70D or 7D for portraits.

At or near the wide end, the 70-200 is a perfectly good portrait lens on a crop-frame camera. I've used it often for candid portraits on a 7D.

I'm not sure how the 70-200 got into this discussion, but there it is.

Re: Looking to bring my phtotgraphy to the next level

ebiggs1 — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 14:21:07 GMT

"I'm not sure how the 70-200 got into this discussion, but there it is."

Ahh, this.....

"One of my favorites is my EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM with the focal length out near 200mm and the focal ratio down near f/2.8 or f/4."

On a crop this lens is just a tad bit too long. At 112 to 320mm? You think that is a good protrait length? To each his own I guess.

Re: Looking to bring my phtotgraphy to the next level

ebiggs1 — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 14:22:44 GMT

My EF 70-200mm f2.8 is my very favorite portrait lens on my FF bodies, BTW. Not on a cropper.

Re: Looking to bring my phtotgraphy to the next level

RobertTheFat — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 14:44:20 GMT

@ebiggs1 wrote:
"I'm not sure how the 70-200 got into this discussion, but there it is."

Ahh, this.....

"One of my favorites is my EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM with the focal length out near 200mm and the focal ratio down near f/2.8 or f/4."

On a crop this lens is just a tad bit too long. At 112 to 320mm? You think that is a good protrait length? To each his own I guess.

When I was using a film Nikon, my portrait lens was a 135mm prime. Some people preferred 90mm or 105mm, but I thought the 135 worked just fine for the purpose.

Today, of course, with a variety of zooms available for my 7D's and mmy 5D3, I wouldn't use a 70-200 for portraits except in a large room when I can't get close. But if I didn't have a 24-105, I think I could make do with the 70-200.

Re: Looking to bring my phtotgraphy to the next level

ebiggs1 — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 15:17:07 GMT

Well there ya go. I still have my FD 135mm f2 and FD 85mm f1.2. I considered the 85 vastly superior to the 135 for protraits. It is still a fabulous piece of glass. My home studio was not big enough to really use the 135 comfortably. It is a fantastic lens though. But there is just something about f1.2.

I talk to many photographers that now have gone to the EF 70-200mm f2.8 as THE goto portrait lens and I can't say I don't disagree. It just may be the best so far!

Re: Looking to bring my phtotgraphy to the next level

jazzman1 — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 15:42:46 GMT

@RobertTheFat wrote:

"One of my favorites is my EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM with the focal length out near 200mm and the focal ratio down near f/2.8 or f/4."

If I understood correctly, the point of the discussion was which lens produced the "better bokeh" for portraits.

Re: Looking to bring my phtotgraphy to the next level

RobertTheFat — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 16:48:16 GMT

@jazzman1 wrote:
@RobertTheFat wrote:

"One of my favorites is my EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM with the focal length out near 200mm and the focal ratio down near f/2.8 or f/4."

If I understood correctly, the point of the discussion was which lens produced the "better bokeh" for portraits.

It wasn't I who said that. and I don't think it represents my opinion very well. I do think the 70-200 has its uses a a portrait lens, but I'd use it that way at its long end only under rather special circumstances.

Re: Looking to bring my phtotgraphy to the next level

jazzman1 — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 17:29:44 GMT

I agree , I would use all the lens with capability over 100mm mentioned, at the long end also. I know I can use the 50 or 85mm focal point with my 24-105 L.... But I had not heard before that my 24-105 L would be good for portraits, at the 105mm focal point for better bokeh. That was good to hear. I will test this out...soon as I can get a subject to work with.

BTW...I know that quote was not from you, I just used it to make my point, since you used it in your message.

Re: Looking to bring my phtotgraphy to the next level

RustyB — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 19:16:07 GMT

i agree with the 7D, or 7D II, plus the 24-105mm and 10-22mm lenses. The 28-135 mm has a nice usable zoom range, takes some nice images, i still have one in my lense collection, but it is what some call a 'dust pump', you slide it within itself to focus which can pull dust or moisture within the lens body, i have a friend who loves shooting wildflowers and insects, his 28-135 appears to have mold inside and has stopped focusing properly, he keeps a plastic trash bag with him to cover his equipment if caught in a rain storm, but humidity was too much.

Years ago i had a Rebel XT with the 10-22mm ( sold it to a friend who is still using it to do portraits and group shots at his church) , it was one of my go to lenses for wider group shots or landscapes with that reduced sensor camera.

Recently one of my coworkers purchased the 7D II prior to his last vacation (i recommended these lenses and camera combination) and he and his fiancee brough back some great shots and love the lense and camera combination they put togethor. Should be a Camera you can enjoy getting the shots you're looking for, and learn using camera settings to get the depth of field and background blur you want in the portraits.

Re: Looking to bring my phtotgraphy to the next level

ebiggs1 — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 20:30:34 GMT

"... but it is what some call a 'dust pump', ..."

I hear and have heard this a for a very long time. But I don't know how much I believe it. Some lenses seem to get this attribute associaled with them. I suppose there must be some truth in it, however, all lenses move. It is a fact of life. It is simply, how they move that seems to garner the reputation.

I have had two, and still do have one, of the EF 28-135mm and neither was any more or less dusty inside than any other zoom I have.

To this, I would not worry and use the lens with out concern.

Re: Looking to bring my phtotgraphy to the next level

bethanyanna — Fri, 10 Jul 2015 18:15:06 GMT

Awesome Information! I love it! Thank you!

'course it will take me a few read throughs to catch it all, and I'm sure there will be some trial and error on my end to see what works for me and what doesn't.

@TCapmbell wrote:

"You specifically mentioned wanting something nicer for portraits. Of course any camera can take a "portrait" (even a phone), so when someone mentions wanting something "nicer" it occurs to me that you might be thinking of the effect in which the subject has tack-sharp focus and yet the background is beautifully blurred."

Yes! Exactly! Although I'm sure I could probably achive some of that effect through editing, my assumption is, it would be much more effective if that's just how I took the photo.

@TTMartin wrote:

"For a general use camera I would choose the 70D over the classic 7D. The 70D is very close to the classic 7D in its performance feature (fps, 19 focus points, etc) and adds some nice features for general use like the tilt swivel touch screen, much finer more even noise characteristics, and Dual Pixel AF for video."

My initial reaction, and subsequent reply to this is that my preference would be to go with the 7D, as it's a little higher (don't know if that's the right word) model, and I also have no interest in video. But after handling the 6D, T5i, & 70D earlier this week, I am hesitant to purchase a hefty camera like the 6D (which I'm assuming is similar to the 7D since they both that metal frames).

The 70D, weightwise & sizewise, is more what I had in mind. But if I go that roiute, would I be better searved to go with the newer T5i even though it has fewer megapixels?

The only thing that I don't care for on either model (70D & T5i) is the flip-out/ rotate in almost any direction screen that just seems like it's just one more moving parts that could eventually lead to costly repairs. It almost screams "Break me now".

Has anybody encountered any problems in regards to the flip screens?

Re: Looking to bring my phtotgraphy to the next level

bethanyanna — Fri, 10 Jul 2015 18:23:41 GMT

Although... it occurs to me now that weight may not be attributed to the camera as much as the lens.

Would that be a correct observation?

Re: Looking to bring my phtotgraphy to the next level

RustyB — Fri, 10 Jul 2015 19:34:09 GMT

one of my coworkers (mentioned in earlier reply) bought the 7D version2, and loves it because it does well with the portrait and family shots he takes , plus has a higher 'frame per second count' so he can capture action shots, including airshows, and the kids running around the yard with more 'keeper' shots that are in focus , and when he wants 'portrait' quality shots can adjust the aperture setting / depth of field, to fade the background to the degree he wants also.

Another one of my co workers has a 60D; plus the 6D you mentioned because he wanted a Full frame camera that was better in Low light situations, where you can actually take more shots without necessasarily needing to add flash (better sensor high ISO capability), but it has a relatively smaller frame per second ability, not good for rapid action shots, slower to focus, the 6D is a larger camera than the reduced sensor sized Rebels, 60d, 70d, 7d, 7d2 crop sensor cameras, but is not actually that much more in weight,.

As far as lenses go, professional lenses that are also better in low light , and have larger max aperture sizes (smaller f numbers) , will have more glass in them also will weigh quite a bit more...

You would think my 1dx was a cinder block :), but it has a heavier build, 3 processors, heavier battery, etc., but it is what works for me in a greater variety of situations.