topic Re: DSLR 101 in EOS DSLR & Mirrorless Cameras

DSLR 101

ebiggs1 — Sat, 11 Apr 2015 21:50:10 GMT

Here is a sample of RAW and how it can help make your photos better.

Normal RAW exposure.

Normal exposure jpg. They look pretty close because you are looking at a computer monitor. The RAW has been converted to jpg in post. The original jpg was done by the camera, a 1Ds Mk III in this case.

However, suspose you got something wrong. In this case I under exposed it by 3 stops. But it could be any condition. WB, color balance, saturation, and on and on, etc.

Corrected RAW.

Corrected jpg. But below lets look a little closer.

Especially check the shadows. Can you see the difference? Need a better look? OK, here is a 100% crop of that enlargment.

It should be blantly obivious that RAW is the way to go. All else was equal. Same camera. Same lens. Same time of day. Same, same!

Get Lightroom................

Re: DSLR 101

ebiggs1 — Sat, 11 Apr 2015 01:01:15 GMT

BTW, I might mention, the required adjustment for the jpg underexposure was maxed out. The RAW still has room to go, however.

Re: DSLR 101

jazzman1 — Sat, 11 Apr 2015 11:58:30 GMT

I follow what you've said, I've looked at your pics, raw and jpeg. But still don't understand. Looking at the 2 examples, I'm not seeing what you say I'm suppose to. You say look in the dark areas......????????????

Re: DSLR 101

RobertTheFat — Sat, 11 Apr 2015 18:51:51 GMT

@ebiggs1 wrote:
Here is a sample of RAW and how it can help make your photos better.

Normal RAW exposure.

Normal exposure jpg. They look pretty close because you are looking at a computer monitor. The RAW has been converted to RAW in post. ...

I'm pretty sure that's not what you meant to say.

Re: DSLR 101

ebiggs1 — Sat, 11 Apr 2015 21:57:58 GMT

Good lord, Bob from Boston, I need a keeper. You are absolutely correct.

"The RAW has been converted to ~~RAW~~ jpg in post. ..." I edited it!

I do disagree on the pixels vs inches, however. Not saying in time a person shouldn't use it, but for starters it is far easier to understand the size of monitor they have. When you teach people, almost anything, you need to start slow with baby steps.

Another reason I want Kareem to just use one ot two or perhaps three pictures until he understands DPP ( preferably LR or PSE). I want him to use "P" mode and AF for now. With evaluative meter and a set ISO of say 200 to 400.

If he insists on DPP, maybe you can give better pointers than I.

Re: DSLR 101

ebiggs1 — Sat, 11 Apr 2015 22:08:19 GMT

"You say look in the dark areas......?"

Actually you can see the difference everywhere. It is just far easier to see how a jpg breaks down in the "shadows". Especially when you need severe editing. Like three stops.

If you just intend to shoot snapshots, than I will concede you have little reason to change to RAW. However, RAW is so simple anymore, it is truly a waste if you don't.

You bought a top of the mark DSLR and a top of the mark "L" lens. Better than anyone you will likely encounter on a regular basis. But you want to hamper all that goodness by using jpg?

Actually, Kareem, you are not very different than most people I meet or who have attended my class. They stick with jpg and are quite happy. But they get the same reasoning that I just gave you. The ultimate decission is yours and what you are confortable with. You are not wrong to use jpg and like I say, it does depend on your requirments.

Re: DSLR 101

jazzman1 — Sun, 12 Apr 2015 00:11:43 GMT

Biggs, Biggs, have you not read my previous posts?????? In a post to the other thread I said I'm now doing all my pics in RAW!!!!! And I also said I would use DPP only untill I can get Lightroom. You sound as if I'm resisting your suggestions...I'm not.

My instructor today in class, "photography 100, told me the same thing you have about LR. In fact later this year they're doing a class just on LR, as they do a few times a year. I learned so much today about my camera and using it. Now I know how to use most of it's features. I also learned about using P and M mode. I did'nt retain all the details they taught today, but I did comprehend the basics of using P and M mode. I understand it alot, of how one makes M setting and why. I also know how to check my M setting before I snap a pic to see if I have my exposure correct for my shot. I learned about aperture, ISO, and shutter speed settings and why and when to use them. It helps so much to have hands on ones camera when taking instructions and the help of the instructor to answer questions and show you when and where you went wrong. I will be able to understand and follow you guys instruction better now. Biggs you have to stop assuming any delay on my part, of taking a suggestion, is from my resistance to progress.

Biggs, no offense, but I do agree with Bob as to what he said about inches vs. pixels in DPP. In fact, using the exact method Bob described with the pexels, is how I figured out how to make the proper settings in DPP to post pics here on this site. After you change the data in the box, inch measurement disappears, and you only see measurements in pexels. Maybe your way is best for you, but I found the correct pic size using pixels, and think as Bob said .......one should forget about inches in DPP and just use pixels. Of course the 950 size max I determined I would use, is only for uploading pics to this site. One can make them big as one wants I suppose for other uses. In that instance maybe inches would work, I dunno.

Re: DSLR 101

jazzman1 — Sun, 12 Apr 2015 04:33:33 GMT

Biggs I will certainly use the settings you suggest here. After class today I thought of dropping my ISO to 100. I was using 400. But I will try your 200-400 setting. I'm all for moving to P mode and AF. In fact, that's what I've been using all week. I got off auto a few weeks ago. Basically I will be using the setting you named from now on till I stepup from there. I noticed a few things lately that had got by me. On several pics in the last few weeks I thought I had taken pics outta focus. But on close examination I realised my camera had focused on something closer than what I was aimong at. That made the object I was trying to capture, out of focus, and the closer object in perfect focus....like a tree leaf for instance, or tree, or some other object. near'er to me.

Sorry Biggs, not saying you're wrong about the pics you posted, just that at this point, I don't see what you see far as defects in that Jpeg pic. Not you, it's on me, I just don't see what you see yet. My eye is not trained enough yet to see it.

Re: DSLR 101

RobertTheFat — Sun, 12 Apr 2015 05:04:32 GMT

@jazzman1 wrote:
Biggs, Biggs, have you not read my previous posts?????? In a post to the other thread I said I'm now doing all my pics in RAW!!!!! And I also said I would use DPP only untill I can get Lightroom. You sound as if I'm resisting your suggestions...I'm not.

My instructor today in class, "photography 100, told me the same thing you have about LR. In fact later this year they're doing a class just on LR, as they do a few times a year. I learned so much today about my camera and using it. Now I know how to use most of it's features. I also learned about using P and M mode. I did'nt retain all the details they taught today, but I did comprehend the basics of using P and M mode. I understand it alot, of how one makes M setting and why. I also know how to check my M setting before I snap a pic to see if I have my exposure correct for my shot. I learned about aperture, ISO, and shutter speed settings and why and when to use them. It helps so much to have hands on ones camera when taking instructions and the help of the instructor to answer questions and show you when and where you went wrong. I will be able to understand and follow you guys instruction better now. Biggs you have to stop assuming any delay on my part, of taking a suggestion, is from my resistance to progress.

Biggs, no offense, but I do agree with Bob as to what he said about inches vs. pixels in DPP. In fact, using the exact method Bob described with the pexels, is how I figured out how to make the proper settings in DPP to post pics here on this site. After you change the data in the box, inch measurement disappears, and you only see measurements in pexels. Maybe your way is best for you, but I found the correct pic size using pixels, and think as Bob said .......one should forget about inches in DPP and just use pixels. Of course the 950 size max I determined I would use, is only for uploading pics to this site. One can make them big as one wants I suppose for other uses. In that instance maybe inches would work, I dunno.

Inches work best when inches are the ultimate objective. Printers, for example, take their input in pixels, but their output is usually understood and measured in inches. So when the desired result is a print, it may be easier to set your pixels per inch to the resolution of the target printer and do your planning in inches. But when your objective is to maintain as much resolution as possible while conforming to a file size restriction, it can be easier to work in pixels. The point is that neither way of thinking is right and the other wrong; you get to choose which works in different situations.

Similarly, there's no perfect photo editor, and the choice among them depends on your particular situation. DPP, for example, is especially good when you're switching around among different computers, because all of the editing data can be carried along in a copy of the original RAW file. Lightroom, OTOH, maintains a database of subjects and keywords that can be vital if you have a very large number of pictures and need to be able to quickly identify those that are related in some way. Photoshop excels by allowing you to manipulate large picture elements like figures, backgrounds, etc. Depending on the type of photography you do, you may never need that capability; but if you do, only PS and possibly a few other high-end editors will suffice.

Please be clear on one thing if you're not already: Ernie and I aren't arguing to get you to do things his way or mine. We're just telling you what works for us, in the hope that you'll find enough of it useful that it can help you become a better photographer. And it's important for you to realize that Ernie has had teaching experience while I haven't, and that while I'm actually a bit older than he is, his involvement in the game has been a lot more continuous and intensive than mine has. And you're absolutely doing the right thing by taking the hands-on class. You're obviously paying attention; and if you follow it up with self-directed practice, it can do you a lot of good.

Re: DSLR 101

jazzman1 — Sun, 12 Apr 2015 06:19:07 GMT

Hey Bob good to hear from you so soon. !st off let me say for the record I don't think you and especially Biggs are trying to get me to do things you guys way. Biggs has said many times he only makes suggestions and the choice to follow it or not is purely mine or whoever you guys tell it to. I know that. What I was saying is sometimes I feel that Biggs thinks I'm dragging my feet to move forward out of stubborn resistance. That I have'nt done. I have had valid reasons, I think, for not making a decision to move when asked. I did'nt at 1st want to shoot in RAW because the files they made were too big, and problematic for me to do much with. I did'nt know at 1st I could use DPP to process RAW to Jpeg, nor did I even know how to use DPP. I did'nt get PSE 13, nor LR because I don't have the funds to spare right now. I bought new lens not because I was jumping the gun and making bad decisions, it was because of circumstances that arose and realisinng I could save alot of money on deals, getting lens and gear now that I would buy soon anyway....and probably at the regular price. All I ask is you and biggs give me the benefit of the doubt that I'm thinking things through and see some things I do as in my own best interest at the time. I feel that my judgement is questioned at times merely because I'm a newbie that's all. And maybe because of past experience with other newbie's. Sometimes you guys time frame for me to move on something is out of my comfort zone at the time. iI's not that I won't do it, but just let me move at my own pace. Believe me, If I decide not to do a thing, I will say that in no uncertain terms.

I repect Biggs and your knowledge of what you say, no problem with that.

Bob it's hard to believe you're older than Biggs and me. Your pic looks so much younger. My hat off to you, a power greater than yourself is watching over you my friend. Hope you think him much. Anyhow I thank you and Biggs for all your help, and you guys have been a tremdous aid in my learning. I only have a 3 class course in photography 100, 101, and 102. I hope I have you guys for far longer than that. The things I've learned here since I came, helped me understand the things taught today. And no I don't think you're trying to push your ideas on me, I know you're only trying to help. Biggs just have had to deal with so many stubborn and beligerent students I think, that he's become gunshy and nervous and thinks everyone wants to run LOL.

Re: DSLR 101

jazzman1 — Sun, 12 Apr 2015 06:37:31 GMT

BTW... I agree with what you said about inches vs. pixels. Yes, depends on what one wants and is trying to do, one could choose to use inches or pixels. I said what I said because in the words of Biggs himself...what I was talking about is "real life experience". It was what I did in finding a solution. It's what worked for me. Inches may have worked also, but what I described was the process that succeeded in solving the problem.

Re: DSLR 101

RobertTheFat — Sun, 12 Apr 2015 13:12:40 GMT

@jazzman1 wrote:
Bob it's hard to believe you're older than Biggs and me. Your pic looks so much younger.

Well, I'm not trying to deceive anybody, so I went back and looked it up. The picture was taken (by a colleague at work) six years ago, when I was 71. I guess I should update it one of these days.

Re: DSLR 101

jazzman1 — Sun, 12 Apr 2015 13:48:34 GMT

Bob you don't look 71 in that pic. And you say you're now 6 yrs older man that's hard to believe !!!! Man, your mind is still sharp as a tack and your memory seems to still be serving you well. I do believe you Bob, it's just i never would have guessed had you not said. You and Biggs seem to have lived a charmed life my friend, and you're both having the time of your life doing what you both love. Must be nice, really really nice. Keep up the good work, I'll be all ears. Biggs and yourself have really been a big help and you guys still have much to teach and show me.

Re: DSLR 101

jazzman1 — Sun, 12 Apr 2015 13:49:24 GMT

BTW....Are you still working??????

Re: DSLR 101

jazzman1 — Sun, 12 Apr 2015 16:15:10 GMT

Biggs I see the wavyness in the pics, but I see that in the RAW as well as the jpg. I can't tell the difference.

BTW...What's the fastest SD card you use with your camera's. I want the fastest my camera can utilise. I'm using SanDisk Class 10 Extreme Plus 80 mb speed . Is that overkill with my 60D and SX60 HS Super Zoom???

Re: DSLR 101

ebiggs1 — Sun, 12 Apr 2015 16:53:37 GMT

"Please be clear on one thing if you're not already: Ernie and I aren't arguing to get you to do things his way or mine. We're just telling you what works for us, in the hope that you'll find enough of it useful that it can help you become a better photographer."

This says it all. Nobody wants a clone. How boring would that be? A person hears and either takes advice or they don't. It's your choice.

I worked for Hallmark Cards for 40 years. I was the Graphics Arts Trainer for 20 of those years. I had a photography business on the side. Now I am retired now and this is just a hobby. At this point I simply experiment with equipment and am happy. A drastic change for me for sure.

But on to you! What I mean by seemingly pushing you towards a certain thing like 'RAW' for example, is I have found this to be, my opinion of the best. It is not, and not meant to be, the end all way to do successful photography. I still have highly successful and profitable friends that don't agree with me on a few topics. How they do it, works for them. I have a friend that uses DPP and CS2. He won't move from that. Is he unusual? Darn right and maybe the only one left in the USA that does that. But it works for him and it has for some time.

On this same thought trend, if you do not see the appearent improvement in the samples at the beginning of this thread, RAW may not be for you. Actually it is likely a waste of time and effort. As you grow you might come back and take a new look and say, "Hey, that is very much better." Does this make it right or wrong? Absolutely not. It is all in what your requirements and expectations are.

On the inches vs pixels, neither is right or wrong. They are simply different ways to the same goal. However, nobody knows what a pixel is. Do you? No, I didn't think so. You do know what an inch is! You can see your monitor right in front of you. You know its size? Pick a size in inches that fits. When/if you get LR this is what you will see.

And this is the posted result.

Re: DSLR 101

ebiggs1 — Sun, 12 Apr 2015 17:02:49 GMT

"Biggs I see the wavyness in the pics, but I see that in the RAW as well as the jpg. I can't tell the difference.

First the SD card. The fastest card is usually not a requirement unless you shoot video. It is always best to use the SD card that Canon recommends in your 6D manual. As a matter of fact, it is always best to use what Canon recommends no matter what accessory it is. They built and know your camera better than anyone else.

Second do you not see unwanted aritfacts in the shadow areas? How about noise? How about a loss of sharpness?

Re: DSLR 101

jazzman1 — Sun, 12 Apr 2015 22:03:58 GMT

Biggs I see the wavvy vertical lines in the upper building. Don't see much else. Noise??? No. Not saying it's not there, I just don't see it. Why don't you point it out and then i will tell you if i see it too. Far as sharpness, it seems sharp to me. It would be better if I had an a & b example to choose from. On the face of it, looks fine to me. Are you sure I would see all that from my monitor??? Is it the same as seeing it in person instead of on the net???

I'm going to stick with RAW. No matter if I see the difference now or not, I believe what you're saying that it's best. I will evenually see what you're talking about, I have no doubt about that.

What SD cards do you use yourself??? What class and speed???

BTW...That's some Pc setup you have, even 2 27" monitors. But I knew you would have a good rig with your professional experience and stuff you do. No way you could do what you do without having a top flight Pc. 8 gigs of ram has been fine for me up to now. And only 2 of my Pc's will take more than 8gb ram. But I only need one for exclusive use with my Pics and Video's, and the one I'm going to upgrade maxes out at 32gb ram. It's the only one with a high def monitor with 1080p, my others only have 720p. If I add the editing software I will need more ram I believe. I'm like you, besides working on pics and video I also want to be able to mulit task with other programs at the same time. Right now I also run muliable programs at the same time with no issue.

Re: DSLR 101

jazzman1 — Sun, 12 Apr 2015 22:10:29 GMT

You're right about the inches vs. pexels, I have no problem with that. To each his own. Depends on what you're doing and trying to acheve and the program yu're working with. I think I know what pexels are, they make the resolution in a photo sharp. I don't know the tecnical explenation, but I know you need a minimum number of pexels for a given sharp image. And I know if you crop a pic, your image will suffer if you don't have enough pexels to start with. Anyhow I think that's right.

Re: DSLR 101

ebiggs1 — Mon, 13 Apr 2015 14:18:24 GMT

What SD cards do you use yourself??? What class and speed???

I have a Lexar 16GB 400x speed and a SanDisk 16GB 40MB/s right here in front of me.