topic Re: On a 5d Mk III set Exposure Compensation in Manual Mode (M) with Auto ISO turned on? in EOS DSLR & Mirrorless Cameras

On a 5d Mk III set Exposure Compensation in Manual Mode (M) with Auto ISO turned on?

Califdan — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 18:59:39 GMT

On a 5d Mk III how do I set Exposure Compensation when in Manual Mode (M) with Auto ISO turned on?

On my New Canon EOS 7d Mark II, I can program the "Set" button such that when used in conjunction with the front control dial, changes the EC (Exposure Compensation) when in Manual (M) shooting mode. In other words, when in M mode, one dial changes SS, the other dial changes Aperture and the camera picks the ISO, but by using the SET button along with the front dial I can tell it to select an ISO that will over or under expose by a dialed in amount of stops. This is a great feature and for the first times makes shooting in M viable for rapidly changing scenes. How can I do this on my 5d Mk III?

Re: On a 5d Mk III set Exposure Compensation in Manual Mode (M) with Auto ISO turned on?

Skirball — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 19:19:18 GMT

You can't do it. Canon added it for the $6,700 1Dx in a firmware fix. Acknowledging that it is a worthwhile feature, but I guess they feel that it's a feature they need to reserve for only the highest of the high end. It's absurd, concidering how easy it would be to implement. It's one of the few (of the many) missing features that I truly regret not having.

Re: On a 5d Mk III set Exposure Compensation in Manual Mode (M) with Auto ISO turned on?

Califdan — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 22:48:43 GMT

Thanks again for your reply,

I guess they are re-thinking this a bit as it is present in the new $1,800 7d Mk II which is an APS-C body and therefore not in the "highest end" realm of Canon models. I shoot with a 5d MK III and upgraded my 7d to a 7d Mk II at the end of October. I just got back from 3 weeks in Guatemala where I had the 5d III and 7d II and fell in love with this feature on the 7d II, so went looking for it on the 5d - but to no avail.

If I find out where to post feature requests for Canon I'll post a request to add this to the 5d III via a firmware upgrade. As an Ex-boss of mine used to say; "If you don't shoot, you can't score" - so probably a long shot but worth 10 minutes to post it --- just in case.

Dan

Re: On a 5d Mk III set Exposure Compensation in Manual Mode (M) with Auto ISO turned on?

Skirball — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 23:20:40 GMT

Thanks for the info, still don't know too much about the 7D2. I'm glad Canon started putting this in, finally. I just wish they'd trickle down the firmware fix they did for the 1Dx to cameras like the 5d3 and 6D. Yeah, I'm aware that Canon claims that the 1Dx is specially designed to allow more firmware fixes, I just don't believe it.

How do you like going from the 5D3 to the 7D?

Re: On a 5d Mk III set Exposure Compensation in Manual Mode (M) with Auto ISO turned on?

Califdan — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 02:06:01 GMT

I tend to carry two bodies when I'm out shooting. Right now it's the 5d3 and 7d2 (prior to that was the 5d3 and 7d). The control layout on the old and new 7d's are for the most part identical to those on the 5d3 so it's a piece of cake continously swapping back and forth. Now that the 7d's pixel count is similar to the 5d3, I feel much more comfortable grabbing the 7d2 than I did with the 7d. On this trip to Central America I had only had the 7d2 for a week before we left which I felt was a bit risky. But after shooting 50 or so frames I decided to chance it. Fortunatly it worked out pretty well.

In my pre-trip testing I tried the GPS image tagging with it also saving a track log. This really drained the battery - especially since the track log recording continues even when the camera goes to sleep - and, I think, when it is powered off as well As I tend to power on my cameras when I leave the hotel in the morning and not power them off till I go to bed that night (after uploading the day's images to my laptop) having the GPS logging on was not an option. However, leaving just the GPS image tagging operational all day did not seem to be a power issue. There was no day in my trip where I had to go to my 2nd battery during the day, and some days started at 4:00 am and didn't end till 10:00 pm. Half the time I was using a new LP-E6N battery (same form factor and charger as the LP-E6 but a bit more power) and half the time an LP-E6 from my old 7d (I don't have the BG-E16 Battery Grip so it's just the one battery in the base body). As long as I can get a whole day's shoot on one charge I'm happy. I recharge each day's battery overnight each night (when the hotel has electricity). I also rarly use live view and also rarely shoot video or use flash all of which are battery drains,

I'm really loving the 7d2. Especially the auto-ISO in Manual Mode with easy Exposure Compensation. In fact, where the (effective) focal length I wanted for a shot was in an overlap range between the two bodies I found myself grabbing the 7d2 over the 5d3 many times, especially when there was strong backlight or an overly bright or dark subject. I usually had the Canon 24-105 on the 6d3 and either a Tamron 28-300, Canon 10-22, anon 100-400, or Canon 100mm Macro on the 7d2. I haven't gone through my images in detail yet but from what I've seen the noise on the 7d doesn't seem to be much different at any particular ISO then the 5d3. I haven't done any controlled tesing and also have not yet read any reviews where they've done controlled testing so I may just be delusional, but so far I'm real happy with the 7d2.

Only two minor issues. 1) would like to see compass direction added to view finder (will help find the north star before dark to set up camera for star trails images - yeah I know my smart phone has an app for that), and 2) the USB data cable now has a diffent plug at the camera end (It's a flat thing, not the standard trapezoid plug we're used to) so I have to bring along one more cable than before.

Thanks -- Dan

www.danhartfordphoto.com

Re: On a 5d Mk III set Exposure Compensation in Manual Mode (M) with Auto ISO turned on?

Skirball — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 17:15:02 GMT

That's good info, thanks.

@Califdan wrote:
In my pre-trip testing I tried the GPS image tagging with it also saving a track log. This really drained the battery - especially since the track log recording continues even when the camera goes to sleep - and, I think, when it is powered off as well

2) the USB data cable now has a diffent plug at the camera end (It's a flat thing, not the standard trapezoid plug we're used to) so I have to bring along one more cable than before.

Yes, the GPS likely continues to run when the camera goes to sleep, much as it does with the 6D

I'd guess that the USB cable is just a Micro USB 3.0. I don't think (hope) that Canon would be so ignorant as to introduce a completely new cable format. Micro 3.0 is a terrible design, and it's about to be outdated by 3.1 which will be back to the same form factor. However, if you look closely you'll see that 3.0 is just a 2.0 plug with an additional plug beside it. So you can still use a 2.0 cable, just by plugging it into the trapezoid part. You won't get 3.0 speed, but you don't have to drag multiple cords around.

Re: On a 5d Mk III set Exposure Compensation in Manual Mode (M) with Auto ISO turned on?

RobertTheFat — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 13:08:04 GMT

@Skirball wrote:
You can't do it. Canon added it for the $6,700 1Dx in a firmware fix. Acknowledging that it is a worthwhile feature, but I guess they feel that it's a feature they need to reserve for only the highest of the high end. It's absurd, concidering how easy it would be to implement. It's one of the few (of the many) missing features that I truly regret not having.

IMO, Canon's whole approach to auto-ISO needs to be rethought. Nikon's auto-ISO capability, while far from prefect, is clearly better.

Re: On a 5d Mk III set Exposure Compensation in Manual Mode (M) with Auto ISO turned on?

RobertTheFat — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 13:14:25 GMT

@Skirball wrote:
Thanks for the info, still don't know too much about the 7D2. I'm glad Canon started putting this in, finally. I just wish they'd trickle down the firmware fix they did for the 1Dx to cameras like the 5d3 and 6D. Yeah, I'm aware that Canon claims that the 1Dx is specially designed to allow more firmware fixes, I just don't believe it.

I think I do. The trivial way to specially design a camera to allow more firmware fixes is to include more unused memory. In a body the size of the 1DX they have plenty of room to throw in another memory chip or two.

Re: On a 5d Mk III set Exposure Compensation in Manual Mode (M) with Auto ISO turned on?

RobertTheFat — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 13:28:57 GMT

@Skirball wrote:
I'd guess that the USB cable is just a Micro USB 3.0. I don't think (hope) that Canon would be so ignorant as to introduce a completely new cable format. Micro 3.0 is a terrible design, and it's about to be outdated by 3.1 which will be back to the same form factor. However, if you look closely you'll see that 3.0 is just a 2.0 plug with an additional plug beside it. So you can still use a 2.0 cable, just by plugging it into the trapezoid part. You won't get 3.0 speed, but you don't have to drag multiple cords around.

But the 7D and the 5D3 don't use any form of micro-USB. They still use mini-USB (as does every card reader I ever saw). The mini and micro cables are incompatible. There are adapters, of course, but they're small and easily lost.

Re: On a 5d Mk III set Exposure Compensation in Manual Mode (M) with Auto ISO turned on?

Skirball — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 15:33:02 GMT

@RobertTheFat wrote:
@Skirball wrote:
You can't do it. Canon added it for the $6,700 1Dx in a firmware fix. Acknowledging that it is a worthwhile feature, but I guess they feel that it's a feature they need to reserve for only the highest of the high end. It's absurd, concidering how easy it would be to implement. It's one of the few (of the many) missing features that I truly regret not having.
IMO, Canon's whole approach to auto-ISO needs to be rethought. Nikon's auto-ISO capability, while far from prefect, is clearly better.

I think that could be said about a whole lot of Canon's choices when it comes to electronic features. Their lens and sensors are fantastic, but the tech is always a couple generations behind. Their state of the art $600 flash can't even do second curtain sync? Seriously? My $60 Yongnuo flashes can do this remotely.

Re: On a 5d Mk III set Exposure Compensation in Manual Mode (M) with Auto ISO turned on?

Skirball — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 15:33:52 GMT

@RobertTheFat wrote:
@Skirball wrote:
Thanks for the info, still don't know too much about the 7D2. I'm glad Canon started putting this in, finally. I just wish they'd trickle down the firmware fix they did for the 1Dx to cameras like the 5d3 and 6D. Yeah, I'm aware that Canon claims that the 1Dx is specially designed to allow more firmware fixes, I just don't believe it.

I think I do. The trivial way to specially design a camera to allow more firmware fixes is to include more unused memory. In a body the size of the 1DX they have plenty of room to throw in another memory chip or two.

Really? Memory? You think they can't solder on a slightly bigger chip that cost next to nothing?

Re: On a 5d Mk III set Exposure Compensation in Manual Mode (M) with Auto ISO turned on?

Skirball — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 15:39:57 GMT

@RobertTheFat wrote:
@Skirball wrote:
I'd guess that the USB cable is just a Micro USB 3.0. I don't think (hope) that Canon would be so ignorant as to introduce a completely new cable format. Micro 3.0 is a terrible design, and it's about to be outdated by 3.1 which will be back to the same form factor. However, if you look closely you'll see that 3.0 is just a 2.0 plug with an additional plug beside it. So you can still use a 2.0 cable, just by plugging it into the trapezoid part. You won't get 3.0 speed, but you don't have to drag multiple cords around.
But the 7D and the 5D3 don't use any form of micro-USB. They still use mini-USB (as does every card reader I ever saw). The mini and micro cables are incompatible. There are adapters, of course, but they're small and easily lost.

Yes, of course, micro not mini. Well that's interesting now that I think about it, I don't think I've ever seen a mini-USB 3.0 cable. I wonder if they finally are moving to micro connectors. Amusing that they'd do it now, with a plug type that probably won't be around for very long.

Re: On a 5d Mk III set Exposure Compensation in Manual Mode (M) with Auto ISO turned on?

Califdan — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 19:26:29 GMT

Robert,

IMO, Canon's whole approach to auto-ISO needs to be rethought. Nikon's auto-ISO capability, while far from prefect, is clearly better.

As a Photography instructor I handle many brands and model cameras in the course of my teaching, and I must say that I wholeheartedly disagree with your statement that Nikon has a better concept of auto-ISO than Canon. In fact, I think it's the opposite. For one thing, in many recent entry and mid range Nikon DSLR camera's Nikon doesn't even allow you to use auto ISO in M, P, A, or S shooting modes. It's only available in full auto or the scene modes. Given that, I'm not sure why you think that Nikon is "clearly better". I do like that on Nikon models that do let you use Auto-ISO in the manual modes, they tend to give you more ability to set specific limits on how high or low the auto ISO will go but I don't find this all that an important feature as you should be glancing at your ISO settings as you shoot anyway.

I am curious as to why you think the Nikon approach is clearly better. Maybe I'm missing somehting that you can enlighten me on.

Dan

Re: On a 5d Mk III set Exposure Compensation in Manual Mode (M) with Auto ISO turned on?

RobertTheFat — Fri, 05 Dec 2014 13:49:14 GMT

@Califdan wrote:
Robert,

IMO, Canon's whole approach to auto-ISO needs to be rethought. Nikon's auto-ISO capability, while far from prefect, is clearly better.
As a Photography instructor I handle many brands and model cameras in the course of my teaching, and I must say that I wholeheartedly disagree with your statement that Nikon has a better concept of auto-ISO than Canon. In fact, I think it's the opposite. For one thing, in many recent entry and mid range Nikon DSLR camera's Nikon doesn't even allow you to use auto ISO in M, P, A, or S shooting modes. It's only available in full auto or the scene modes. Given that, I'm not sure why you think that Nikon is "clearly better". I do like that on Nikon models that do let you use Auto-ISO in the manual modes, they tend to give you more ability to set specific limits on how high or low the auto ISO will go but I don't find this all that an important feature as you should be glancing at your ISO settings as you shoot anyway.

I am curious as to why you think the Nikon approach is clearly better. Maybe I'm missing somehting that you can enlighten me on.

Dan

Canon auto-ISO (on the cameras I've owned) will often lower the shutter speed to a value unusable in a hand-held shot before it raises the ISO setting. Nikon lets you set specific limits on the shutter speed to prevent that behavior (or did the last time I looked, which was a while back). I wasn't aware that Nikon doesn't let you use auto-ISO in those other shooting modes, and I agree that it's a misfeature.

I hope Skirball jumps back in on this one, since I suspect that her information is more complete and more current than mine. I gave up on auto-ISO on my 7D's; I'm not sure I've tried it on my 5D3.

Re: On a 5d Mk III set Exposure Compensation in Manual Mode (M) with Auto ISO turned on?

Skirball — Fri, 05 Dec 2014 16:27:48 GMT

@RobertTheFat wrote:
@Califdan wrote:
Robert,

IMO, Canon's whole approach to auto-ISO needs to be rethought. Nikon's auto-ISO capability, while far from prefect, is clearly better.
As a Photography instructor I handle many brands and model cameras in the course of my teaching, and I must say that I wholeheartedly disagree with your statement that Nikon has a better concept of auto-ISO than Canon. In fact, I think it's the opposite. For one thing, in many recent entry and mid range Nikon DSLR camera's Nikon doesn't even allow you to use auto ISO in M, P, A, or S shooting modes. It's only available in full auto or the scene modes. Given that, I'm not sure why you think that Nikon is "clearly better". I do like that on Nikon models that do let you use Auto-ISO in the manual modes, they tend to give you more ability to set specific limits on how high or low the auto ISO will go but I don't find this all that an important feature as you should be glancing at your ISO settings as you shoot anyway.

I am curious as to why you think the Nikon approach is clearly better. Maybe I'm missing somehting that you can enlighten me on.

Dan
Canon auto-ISO (on the cameras I've owned) will often lower the shutter speed to a value unusable in a hand-held shot before it raises the ISO setting. Nikon lets you set specific limits on the shutter speed to prevent that behavior (or did the last time I looked, which was a while back). I wasn't aware that Nikon doesn't let you use auto-ISO in those other shooting modes, and I agree that it's a misfeature.
I hope Skirball jumps back in on this one, since I suspect that her information is more complete and more current than mine. I gave up on auto-ISO on my 7D's; I'm not sure I've tried it on my 5D3.

Yeah, they added that feature (ability to set auto ISO min s in the last round of FF updates - 1dX, 5d3 and 6D. I'd hope that it's on the 7D2 as well. In my opinion this kind of feature should be available on the XXD line as well (as should exposure compensation, but you know my opinion on that).

That said, I really only use auto ISO in manual, so I don't really use the min shutter speed feature. There's too many variables left up to the camera if you're in a semi-automatic mode like Av or Tv, and have auto ISO on.

Re: On a 5d Mk III set Exposure Compensation in Manual Mode (M) with Auto ISO turned on?

Califdan — Fri, 05 Dec 2014 17:18:01 GMT

@Skirball wrote:
@RobertTheFat wrote:
@Califdan wrote:
Robert,

IMO, Canon's whole approach to auto-ISO needs to be rethought. Nikon's auto-ISO capability, while far from prefect, is clearly better.
As a Photography instructor I handle many brands and model cameras in the course of my teaching, and I must say that I wholeheartedly disagree with your statement that Nikon has a better concept of auto-ISO than Canon. In fact, I think it's the opposite. For one thing, in many recent entry and mid range Nikon DSLR camera's Nikon doesn't even allow you to use auto ISO in M, P, A, or S shooting modes. It's only available in full auto or the scene modes. Given that, I'm not sure why you think that Nikon is "clearly better". I do like that on Nikon models that do let you use Auto-ISO in the manual modes, they tend to give you more ability to set specific limits on how high or low the auto ISO will go but I don't find this all that an important feature as you should be glancing at your ISO settings as you shoot anyway.

I am curious as to why you think the Nikon approach is clearly better. Maybe I'm missing somehting that you can enlighten me on.

Dan
Canon auto-ISO (on the cameras I've owned) will often lower the shutter speed to a value unusable in a hand-held shot before it raises the ISO setting. Nikon lets you set specific limits on the shutter speed to prevent that behavior (or did the last time I looked, which was a while back). I wasn't aware that Nikon doesn't let you use auto-ISO in those other shooting modes, and I agree that it's a misfeature.
I hope Skirball jumps back in on this one, since I suspect that her information is more complete and more current than mine. I gave up on auto-ISO on my 7D's; I'm not sure I've tried it on my 5D3.
Yeah, they added that feature (ability to set auto ISO min s in the last round of FF updates - 1dX, 5d3 and 6D. I'd hope that it's on the 7D2 as well. In my opinion this kind of feature should be available on the XXD line as well (as should exposure compensation, but you know my opinion on that).

That said, I really only use auto ISO in manual, so I don't really use the min shutter speed feature. There's too many variables left up to the camera if you're in a semi-automatic mode like Av or Tv, and have auto ISO on.

I agree with Skirball and Robert. I don't use Auto-ISO in P, Tv, or Av modes as in those modes the camera is changing two things at its own descretion. For example, as Robert pointed out, in Av mode the camera will decide whether to adjust the shutter speed or the ISO to accomodate a lighting change - which, as Skirball points out - is one too many things.

I do use Auto-ISO in M mode as in that mode I set the Shutter and the Aperture and the camera then accomodates lighting changes by adjusting the ISO. I find this very handy where I'm tracking a moving subject - say a lion chasing a zebra - all over the savanah, sometimes in full sun and sometimes in full shade while I wait for the peak action moment when the lion leaps onto the zebra for the kill - which may be in the sun or the shade.

The problem that I didn't know I had with the 5dk3 (and prior models) untill I got the just released 7dk2 was that on the 5dk3 there's no way to use EC (Exposure Compensation) when in M mode and using Auto-ISO. If you have a fixed ISO, then changing the Aperture or Shutter speed gives you more or less exposure (but must be redone each time the light changes). If you turn on Auto-ISO then the camera sets the ISO, but for a zero EC exposure (no compensation) exposure.

However, if the subject is overly bright or dark (say a snowy landscape) there is no way to tell the camera to select in ISO that results in an exposure above or below what the meter thinks is "correct'. When I got the 7dk2 I found that there was a way to program the "Set" button so that when held down (in M mode) the front dial can be used to set the EC. Once set, the camera still reacts to lighting changes (in M mode) by adjusting the ISO, but it picks an ISO that is above or below the metered value it would normally use.

On my trip to Central America with both the 5dk3 and new 7dk2 a few weeks ago, I instantly fell in love with this feature on the 7dk2 and can't imagine how I lived without it on all my other cameras. It sure would be nice if Canon could add this ability to the 5dk3 with a firmware update,

-- Dan

Re: On a 5d Mk III set Exposure Compensation in Manual Mode (M) with Auto ISO turned on?

RobertTheFat — Fri, 05 Dec 2014 17:27:45 GMT

@Skirball wrote:
@RobertTheFat wrote:
@Skirball wrote:
Thanks for the info, still don't know too much about the 7D2. I'm glad Canon started putting this in, finally. I just wish they'd trickle down the firmware fix they did for the 1Dx to cameras like the 5d3 and 6D. Yeah, I'm aware that Canon claims that the 1Dx is specially designed to allow more firmware fixes, I just don't believe it.

I think I do. The trivial way to specially design a camera to allow more firmware fixes is to include more unused memory. In a body the size of the 1DX they have plenty of room to throw in another memory chip or two.
Really? Memory? You think they can't solder on a slightly bigger chip that cost next to nothing?

Well, probably, but they'd have to have made that decision ahead of time. (If you have to solder something in later, it's not a firmware update.) In fact, they apparently bothered to include extra memory in the 1DX, but not in the lesser cameras. So (speaking now in Marketese) the 1DX is "specially designed" to allow more firmware fixes. You and I may consider such a use of the word "designed" to be, at minimum, an assault on the common understanding of English technical jargon. But we all know that Marketese is bound by no such strictures.

Re: On a 5d Mk III set Exposure Compensation in Manual Mode (M) with Auto ISO turned on?

KeithR — Sat, 06 Dec 2014 14:01:51 GMT

@RobertTheFat wrote:
IMO, Canon's whole approach to auto-ISO needs to be rethought. Nikon's auto-ISO capability, while far from prefect, is clearly better.

Nikon's is not "clearly better" - I've used both (a lot), and the 7D Mk II implementation is the best I've ever encountered in terms of usability, flexibility, configurability and efficiency.

Why not actually try the thing before dismissing Canon here? Actually speaking from experience seems to be at something of a premium on the internet, but I heartily recommend it.