topic Re: Dynamic range of the color red in RAW files. in EOS DSLR & Mirrorless Cameras

Dynamic range of the color red in RAW files.

KarlKrueger — Thu, 29 May 2014 13:54:02 GMT

I have seen this issue with my 70D and my SX-50 so it seems to be an issue with Canon cameras in general (I don't know if other camera makes have this too). Whenever I photograph something that has the color red (for me I often photograph birds) the jpegs look fine but I always start with post processing of RAW files. Anywhere the red color is found I find the color saturates out very easily. I use Adobe Photoshop Essentials (PSE) for post processing and cannot get the RAW adjusted/processed to look anywhere as good as the jpeg as detail is lost when red saturates out. This is not a problem with any other color.

For now I end up opening the jpeg as RAW in PSE and start my adjustments there which give me a better picture with finer detail than starting with the original RAW file. I will post this same question in the PSE forum to see who else noticed this and what their work around is.

Re: Dynamic range of the color red in RAW files.

ebiggs1 — Thu, 29 May 2014 14:24:08 GMT

All digital cameras suffer from over saturation of the red channel. It is just the way they are. It doesn't matter whether it is CCD or a CMOS sensored camera. However, the 5D Mk III and the 1Dx are better.

About post processing, when using a RAW editing program like Photoshop Elements (?) go to your HSL adjustment and lower the saturation of the reds while increasing the luminance.

Re: Dynamic range of the color red in RAW files.

KarlKrueger — Fri, 06 Jun 2014 12:24:02 GMT

Thank you for this information. I tried controlling the saturation level of red as you suggested but that draws the entire red intensity in the picutre down so it is not what I was I hoping for. When I posted this problem to the PSE forum no one replied so I take that to mean there is no real solution. In conclusion it seems I'm better off starting with the jpeg produced by the camera in these situations. At least PSE gives you the possibility to manipulate the jpeg without further loss.

Re: Dynamic range of the color red in RAW files.

ebiggs1 — Fri, 06 Jun 2014 12:52:12 GMT

Remember less is more sometimes. You probably adjusted too much. Try very small amounts. In the HSL adjustment, just move the red channel, only.

Re: Dynamic range of the color red in RAW files.

KarlKrueger — Fri, 06 Jun 2014 15:16:05 GMT

Adjusting only red is what I did. The rest of the picture was unchanged - only the red became dull. Of course I want to keep the vibrance of the red in the picture without it going off scale. A pretty red bird doesn't look so great when you tone down this color. I can try again if a very small toning down will work but my impression was the camera's jpeg still looked better.

Re: Dynamic range of the color red in RAW files.

Skirball — Fri, 06 Jun 2014 19:40:38 GMT

THe red on my 450D was always oversaturated, my 6D isn't as much. But if I have a photo with highly saturated colors I usually selectively tone down the red channel.

I don't use PSE, but programs like Lightroom can be set to make such adjustments upon import if you're always making the same change.

Re: Dynamic range of the color red in RAW files.

ronnienyc — Fri, 13 Jun 2014 15:41:51 GMT

Re: " All digital cameras suffer from over saturation of the red channel. It is just the way they are. It doesn't matter whether it is CCD or a CMOS sensored camera."

Just for the record I have owned 1Ds2, 1Ds3, every version of 5D, etc and all have had red issued.
I now also own a Nikon D610 and there is no such issue of over saturation of the red channel in RAW. This is one reason that I shoot the Nikon over the 6D almost all the time. The added DR goes a long way. The D610 files are just easier to work with and a lot faster to reach a final image. Desaturating the red channel on the Canon files obviously causes other issues.
I am impatiently waiting for Canon to put out a camera with a comparable sensor.

Re: Dynamic range of the color red in RAW files.

ebiggs1 — Sat, 14 Jun 2014 03:07:16 GMT

"This is one reason that I shoot the Nikon over the 6D almost all the time."

And of course that is just one persons "opinion". I don't shoot or own a 6D but there is no way I would take any brand-N over a any 5D model for model. Of course that is just another man's "opinion".

Re: Dynamic range of the color red in RAW files.

ronnienyc — Sat, 14 Jun 2014 03:14:48 GMT

Almost 3 stops more Dynamic Range on the D610 is a fact, not merely an opinion. And it definitely helps a lot in terms of avoiding saturating the red channel as we are discussing here.

Re: Dynamic range of the color red in RAW files.

ebiggs1 — Sat, 14 Jun 2014 12:24:54 GMT

A single spec, a camera it does not make! A camera as a whole and all specs must be weighed.

Re: Dynamic range of the color red in RAW files.

TCampbell — Sat, 14 Jun 2014 14:18:54 GMT

@ronnienyc wrote:
Almost 3 stops more Dynamic Range on the D610 is a fact, not merely an opinion. And it definitely helps a lot in terms of avoiding saturating the red channel as we are discussing here.

I see this from time to time. It's not actually entirely accurate. If you check carefully, you'll find that Nikons tend to have slightly more dynamic range when working at base ISO. But increase the ISO and ... the Canon's end up with more dynamic range. There's simply no universal "brand x is better than brand y".

Re: Dynamic range of the color red in RAW files.

ronnienyc — Sat, 14 Jun 2014 15:29:04 GMT

Ebiggs, we are talking about a specific problem with the red channel here.

TCampbell - you call almost 3 stops slightly more?
Once either of you shoots with both cameras you will understand. The Nikon makes your work a lot easier in most cases. Less post work required. (And I do like my 6D and 5D3 cameras - just wish they had better sensors. Even when the charts and graphs tell you that the DR between these cameras is the same by ISO 1600 or so, they do not take into account that the Nikon is also about .7 stops more sensitive at a given ISO (meaning it produces a lighter image at matching settings.)
if you shoot them side by side you will see the Nikon produces more detail, more color information, & a cleaner and nicer image just about always.
if canon makes a 5d mark 4 with the sensor like the Sony/Nikon, I'll buy it in a second. I prefer the Canon bodies and lenses.
in any case, I'm not saying that one camera is good and one cameras bad. Just saying that the extra DR in the Sony chips keeps the red channel from oversaturating (as the OP complained about.). And this is a fact. And now I am off this topic, because bickering is not my style. Those of you who doubt the benefits of increased DR should do yourselves a favor and try it sometime.

Re: Dynamic range of the color red in RAW files.

ebiggs1 — Sat, 14 Jun 2014 15:33:38 GMT

This is still just your opinion. And it may be valid for you. It is not, however, so with other photographers. A camera is a collection of the sum of it's parts not a single spec.

At Hallmark, a Nikon company, we had access to every piece of Nikon equipment made. Yet several of us choose Canon's as our personal cameras.

It is great you think so highly of your Nikon but everybody does not feel the same. I could buy any camera I want and I still come back to the Canon 1 series.

Don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with brand-N as both Canon and Nikon make extremely fine products. And if there was no Canon, I would use one, too. The photographic world is Canon and Nikon. Everything else can be lumped into one pot.

Re: Dynamic range of the color red in RAW files.

TCampbell — Sat, 14 Jun 2014 16:19:46 GMT

Ronnie, it's probably not appropriate to attempt to have a camera brand debate here - it's not the purpose of these forums. These are intended for people who own the gear and are asking for help from other people who own the equipment. There are lots of other forums to go have a debate.

Also... be VERY careful about those charts. The data I review from (and I'm going to name names) DxO Mark is flat out wrong. DxO refuses to divulge their testing or scoring methods. They don't actually publish any data... they only publish their "test scores" (that's not the same as data -- which they refuse to divulge). After reviewing a DxO "report", I can then go look at reports from other sources... such as DPreview or even PopPhoto and see completely contradictory information.

I could go into more detail about the unethical nature of DxO testing -- but suffice it to say that you should probably take what you read from them with a grain a salt.

Re: Dynamic range of the color red in RAW files.

ebiggs1 — Sat, 14 Jun 2014 16:22:59 GMT

Re: Dynamic range of the color red in RAW files.

ronnienyc — Wed, 18 Jun 2014 22:25:39 GMT

Karl, what you might want to do is try Canon's Digital Photo Pro software (free) for your RAW conversions.

I find their app deals with the burned out red channel the best.

On the negative side, it does not render as much detail as ACR does on a given file...

Re: Dynamic range of the color red in RAW files.

KarlKrueger — Thu, 19 Jun 2014 12:53:22 GMT

ronnienyc,

I have never really played with Canon's app that much. I'll give it a try. I'm trying to remember what ACR is.

Re: Dynamic range of the color red in RAW files.

ebiggs1 — Thu, 19 Jun 2014 13:36:57 GMT

Adobe Camera Raw

I have the oppisite opinion as to the previous poster. ACR and PS (or LR, or PSE) is far better at everything.

Miles and miles above DPP.

IMHO, as always and worht just as much as you paid for it.

Re: Dynamic range of the color red in RAW files.

KarlKrueger — Fri, 20 Jun 2014 03:19:11 GMT

Just so anyone reading this can see what we are talking about I give examples at the links below using two different birds that have red. The files that say RAW were processed from the CR2 raw files in Photoshop Elements 12 and those marked JPEG were processed with the jpeg produced by the camera opening the file as raw in PSE. This latter combination seems to yield better results - especially if you concentrate on the red color.

http://www.pbase.com/kvogelphoto/summertanager

http://www.pbase.com/kvogelphoto/redwingbb

Re: Dynamic range of the color red in RAW files.

amfoto1 — Fri, 20 Jun 2014 05:52:58 GMT

ACR is Adobe Camera Raw... it's the Adobe app that converts RAW files to JPEGs. It's built into Elements, Lightroom and Photoshop.

Is your computer monitor calibrated? If not, you'll play hell trying to color balance your images in any program.

Also check that Elements is set to the correct color space.

If viewing RAW files in a Windows environment such as Explorer or Picture Viewer (you need a codec installed to do that), those programs are not color calibrated and RAW files tend to look rather flat. I don't believe MS Internet Explorer is color calibrated, either.

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Alan Myers

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