topic Re: EOS 90D Advice on Auto White Balance settings in EOS DSLR & Mirrorless Cameras

EOS 90D Advice on Auto White Balance settings

Anonymous — Thu, 14 Nov 2024 13:53:02 GMT

I was recently reading Understanding Exposure and am already on RAW and M, 99% of the time. Really enjoying the learning process and trying to work without things that say Auto.

I wondered what the feelings and thoughts are on AWB settings - any good advice welcome

Thanks

Twiddler

Re: White Balance

p4pictures — Thu, 14 Nov 2024 09:44:38 GMT

Auto white balance is generally very good, it's one of Canon's significant strengths. In auto, the camera can actually apply different white balance at different parts of the image. If you have a scene lit by household lights, and daylight through a window the camera does a great job of balancing the different light colours and making a good looking result.

Since you shoot RAW you can change the white balance in your editing, either selecting one of the presets like daylight, tungsten, cloudy etc. or dialing in a Kelvin temperature value. A final option is to use the click white balance to select something that should be neutral toned in the frame and then use that to set the white balance.

On the camera itself there are similar presets, and you can use them if you like. Some use shade or cloudy on an overcast day to add warmth to shots but I often find it a bit too warm for my taste.

Re: White Balance

Anonymous — Thu, 14 Nov 2024 09:58:55 GMT

Thanks Brian

That makes sense. I'll just set it on AWB and do any adjustments later, which is basically what I was doing. I got hooked on getting rid of anything with Auto in the title, trying to make my brain work!

Twiddler

Re: White Balance

wq9nsc — Thu, 14 Nov 2024 12:43:51 GMT

I always shoot in RAW so the camera setting for white balance isn't critical. Most of the time, auto white is fine but I frequently use white priority for sports under unusual lighting conditions. This will often correct color shifts due to color temperature variation and even when fine adjustment is needed, it gets me very close.

Rodger

Re: EOS 90D Advice on Auto White Balance settings

FloridaDrafter — Thu, 14 Nov 2024 15:43:52 GMT

I'm not sure if it's a MILC thing, but my Raw come in with "Auto ambiance priority" as default WB adjustment (in DPP) and that works fine. It's nothing I intentionally set in the camera because, like Rodger, I shoot Raw and don't concern myself with WB. In fact, I seldom have to mess with it in post.

Newton

Re: EOS 90D Advice on Auto White Balance settings

ebiggs1 — Thu, 14 Nov 2024 16:06:49 GMT

"I wondered what the feelings and thoughts are on AWB settings - any good advice welcome "

This is a bit confusing. But WB and most all in-camera settings are no stored or do they effect a raw image. None of those settings, WB for instance is saved in a raw file which is essentially just ones and zeros. However when you upload to your computer or view them in the camera LCD screen they do show WB obliviously. The raw file can not be viewed as is so a conversion must be made. The raw converter which ever one you use, I.E., Photoshop, DPP4, etc., does use the camera settings to create that viewable image. But it is just a parameter to make the viewable image. You can set WB and/or most other settings as you please in a raw file. Even then it does not get backed into the raw file. About the only setting that does effect a raw file is exposure. The raw file basically saves the unprocessed, uncompressed data directly from the camera's sensor without any in-camera adjustments like white balance or sharpening, etc.

Re: EOS 90D Advice on Auto White Balance settings

Anonymous — Thu, 14 Nov 2024 16:26:18 GMT

Thanks for your detailed replies. So it looks like I just stick to RAW and M and I'll learn to use the editing software to develop my skills. The thinking behind my question was whether the more experienced photographers bypass WB and do their own thing. So now I can stop worrying about another Auto feature on my camera controlling what I do.

As ever Guys - Thanks for your help and understanding.

Twiddler

Re: EOS 90D Advice on Auto White Balance settings

ebiggs1 — Thu, 14 Nov 2024 16:29:24 GMT

Post editing is where it is at with raw. That is where great photos are made.

Re: EOS 90D Advice on Auto White Balance settings

justadude — Thu, 14 Nov 2024 16:56:11 GMT

"The raw converter which ever one you use, I.E., Photoshop, DPP4, etc., does use the camera settings to create that viewable image. But it is just a parameter to make the viewable image. You can set WB and/or most other settings as you please in a raw file. Even then it does not get backed into the raw file."

I agree that the WB adjustments do not get baked into the RAW file. I could be wrong, but I'm not certain that the WB adjustments do show in the viewable image either. That is the only part of your reply that I am questioning. I've heard other photographers say "it does show in the viewable image" and others yet say "it doesn't show in the viewable image". Bear with me while I explain why I think it doesn't...

When I shoot infrared photography it's the only time I shoot RAW+JPEG instead of RAW only, like I do with my regular photography. Infrared requires a strong WB adjustment to be made since I am capturing light beyond what humans can see with the naked eye. The adjustment changes quite a bit based on the amount of sunlight, which infrared wavelength filter I'm using at the time, and a few other factors. Needless to say, I adjust the custom WB often when I am shooting infrared for the day. The reason for adding the JPEG is that way I can see on the camera screen how the current WB adjustment is doing. For example, if I am shooting with a 590nm filter, the image will be mostly yellow, with blue foliage (this will be edited later so the colors look like a typical infrared image, but that's beside the point).

So when I go home and upload the RAW and JPEG files without doing any edits at all... the JPEG looks like it did on the camera screen - mostly yellows, and blue foliage. The RAW file is pretty much all red, with light tints of purple. While the JPEGs will vary in colors a bit every time I change the WB over the course of the day, the RAW files still have the exact same red and light tints of purple - no variances.

Granted, most people do not shoot infrared photography. But what I am seeing in these files is the reason I'm questioning if the RAW files use the camera settings for WB on regular photography - again, only in the unedited viewable image. I might be missing something. What are your thoughts?

Re: EOS 90D Advice on Auto White Balance settings

Anonymous — Thu, 14 Nov 2024 17:13:15 GMT

Thanks Brian

I think I can understand your argument/point. Its probably above my pay grade at the moment as Im on a steep learning curve. But your point is well made.

When I posted my question it was to see if the experienced photographers were bypassing the Auto element for more control. The RAW position makes sense at the moment - Im currently using DPPE for editing and it gives me lots of options and control. Lots to think about - but the main thing for me is to enjoy my hobby.

Thanks

Twiddler

Re: EOS 90D Advice on Auto White Balance settings

stevet1 — Fri, 15 Nov 2024 02:21:33 GMT

Twiddling,

You've gotten some advice and recommendations from people whose opinions I value highly.

All I can say is that in my own experience, I found that AWB yielded photos that seemed too washed out for my tastes. I started using the Presets like Daylight and Cloudy and was happier with the results. Nowadays, I predominantly use a Kelvin setting of about 5300K, but on cloudy days, I might use the Cloudy Preset to add a little warmth.

I once read that if you want to emphasize the blues and yellows in your picture, use Daylight, and if you want to empasize the reds and greens, use Cloudy.

On my camera, (a T8i), Daylight has a Kelvin temperature of 5200K. A Cloudy Preset has a Kelvin temperature of 6000K.

One way you can test this for yourself is to put your camera in Live View and hit your Q button.

Select the white Balance and choose Kelvin. Using your arrow keys, you can raise or lower your Kelvin temperature and see the effect it has prior to taking your shot.

Steve Thomas

Re: EOS 90D Advice on Auto White Balance settings

Anonymous — Fri, 15 Nov 2024 07:24:33 GMT

Thanks for your reply. I was also trying to use the K setting, prior to this post. I prefer that option - its just one more thing to remember. And as we say in the UK we have a lot of weather!

Twiddler

Re: EOS 90D Advice on Auto White Balance settings

Anonymous — Fri, 15 Nov 2024 11:42:46 GMT

Hi again Gary

Your reply made me dig a bit deeper - but as I've only had my eos90d around 12 months I just enjoy taking it for a walk. I live in a rural, hilly part of the UK so lots of landscape etc. I have to admit that I hadn't pursued infrared at all till I read your post. It looks fascinating and I've already got a Hoya R72 filter in my basket! I've got a good tripod and monopod - so any tips for this beginner would be most welcome. Cheaper filters are available, but this seems to be the best one.

Thanks

Twiddler

Re: EOS 90D Advice on Auto White Balance settings

Ron888 — Fri, 15 Nov 2024 11:53:56 GMT

Never heard of that one! Thanks,i'll go check it out

Re: EOS 90D Advice on Auto White Balance settings

p4pictures — Fri, 15 Nov 2024 11:54:41 GMT

Auto white balance gained the option to choose ambience priority and white priority in some of the DSLRs, certainly my EOS 5D Mark IV had the setting, and from a quick check so did EOS 5DS R and EOS SL3 (250D).

Originally Canon only offered the single auto white balance. By Canon engineers chose they elected to make it render warm toned scenes under tungsten lighting as warm. In some magazine and online reviews this was commented on quite often. So the engineers added the option for auto white balance with white priority to make the camera render tungsten with a more accurate white, but less of the ambience of the scene.

Re: White Balance

Ron888 — Fri, 15 Nov 2024 11:55:50 GMT

Auto white balance to different parts of the image?That's fascinating.I'll see if i can find more info online.
How long has this been a thing?I've been out of photography for awhile

Re: White Balance

p4pictures — Fri, 15 Nov 2024 13:20:07 GMT

Auto white balance works like that for at least the last 20 years in Canon cameras.

Re: EOS 90D Advice on Auto White Balance settings

justadude — Fri, 15 Nov 2024 14:47:44 GMT

You get what you pay for with filters. The Hoya R72 is one I have been using for 20+ years. With a non-converted camera you are limited to shooting either the 720nm or 850nm wavelengths. You would need to convert your camera to full spectrum infrared to shoot the more colorful wavelengths... but then you can't shoot regular photos anymore so I don't recommend that unless you have a second camera body. Besides... shooting on a non-converted camera means longer exposures (like 20 seconds in full sun). The long exposure adds a dreamy effect, which makes infrared even more otherworldly - and I love that look.

I would be happy to share what I've learned over the past 20 years of digital infrared. If you ever jump into infrared film, I've been doing that since the 1980's and can help there as well. I've taught quite a few people over the years, mostly through back and forth messages. It's a bit of a learning curve, but it will challenge you... and it is fun.

If you want to see what I do with infrared (to confirm I know a bit about it) you can see some of my work here: https://500px.com/p/garysyrba/galleries/infrared

If you are interested in tips on infrared with your Canon 90D I think we would have to start a post here under General Discussion - but let's check with the admins first to see if that would be allowed here on the Canon forums. Of course I'll have to promise to only discuss the infrared settings I've used on various Canon cameras, and not mention the Pentax ones. 😂

Re: EOS 90D Advice on Auto White Balance settings

ebiggs1 — Fri, 15 Nov 2024 15:02:21 GMT

" I could be wrong, but I'm not certain that the WB adjustments do show in the viewable image either. That is the only part of your reply that I am questioning."

Raw camera files are simply data info like computers use. Ones and zeros. The only thing they can store is exposure. How bright or dark they are. There isn't any in-camera processing like white balance, contrast, or sharpness adjustments, etc. However like I said all that extra info is stored in a meta data tag that raw converters use to create something we can view. That is where folks go wrong or get confused about a raw file because it seems like or looks like the raw file is more than it is. Again, a raw file is the unprocessed, uncompressed image data directly captured by the camera sensor.

Re: EOS 90D Advice on Auto White Balance settings

justadude — Fri, 15 Nov 2024 15:42:41 GMT

"However like I said all that extra info is stored in a meta data tag that raw converters use to create something we can view. That is where folks go wrong or get confused about a raw file because it seems like or looks like the raw file is more than it is."

I think you and I are misunderstanding each other, Ernie. I do know that the RAW file is 100% unprocessed data... and I know there isn't any in camera processing like there is on jpeg. Let me try explaining what I am asking again because this seems to be an ongoing debate between a lot of photographers over the years...

So the info stored in the meta data tag that is used to create something viewable - we both agree that the viewable image is simply a reference point, and not the actual image itself. All photographers agree that no matter what you do with a custom WB it does not affect the RAW file. However, some photographers say that even though it doesn't affect the RAW file, it DOES affect what the raw converter creates to show us in the unprocessed raw file. Personally I don't believe so due to the large WB difference I'm seeing in the unprocessed raw file vs. the jpeg. That's the only thing I'm questioning.

I just set my R8 up to shoot RAW+JPEG. I put a 720nm wavelength filter on the lens. I set a custom WB and took a photo. Then I changed the WB drastically and took a second photo of the same thing. Uploaded everything into Lightroom, and looked at the unprocessed files. The two jpegs look totally different from each other. The two raw files look identical. Yet other photographers say they notice a difference in the unprocessed raw "viewable creation" when they change settings like I did.

That is where my confusion comes in as to why some people see a difference and others do not on the untouched raw files.