topic Re: Requesting advice on how to successfully focus specifically on hummingbirds in flight. in EOS DSLR & Mirrorless Cameras

Requesting advice on how to successfully focus specifically on hummingbirds in flight.

garymak — Mon, 24 Jun 2024 01:51:17 GMT

Requesting advice on how to successfully focus specifically on hummingbirds in flight.

I’m asking this only of photographers with direct, successful experience specifically photographing hummingbirds in-flight for any tips and tricks you have found that have worked well with focusing issues.

(Please, if you do not have direct, successful experience specifically photographing hummingbirds in-flight, then with all due respect and appreciation for your good intentions, please refrain from offering ideas, thoughts, conjectures, or other experiences with other birds or animals.)

Background:

I have used 4 different methods for photographing hummingbirds in flight:

1) “The Usual”: high SS, medium ƒ-stop, high ISO.

2) “Strobe for high speed shutter” with a high-shutter speed sync, a very low ISO, a very high ƒ-stop, utilizing the strobe burst of the flash (usually 1/10,000th or so) to stop-action the hummingbird in flight. The high ƒ-stop also creates a much wider DoF in which to capture the bird in focus.

3) In turn, both of these methods have utilized 2 different types of focusing methodology:

A. Autofocus (various different settings and areas)

B. Manual pre-focus on the area the hummingbird will most likely come and hover for a brief moment before setting down on the feeder.

All of these methods have yielded just 3-5 decent shots each, based purely on luck, because the main issue is FOCUSING. The R5 auto-focus mechanism is the worst of the two, practically useless, as it simply isn’t fast enough or sophisticated enough to react to the sudden appearance of a tiny hummingbird and focus on it, and usually the autofocus misses the bird entirely and focuses on the farthest background item in the frame (the distant hedges.) Manual focus has worked the best, but still yielded only about half a dozen out of about 1,000 shots, only by luck of the hummingbird being in the exact plane of the pre-focused area. All successes can be attributed entirely to “luck.”

Give the above, does anyone have any direct, successful experience specifically photographing hummingbirds in flight? If so, what did you do differently that worked, or at least yielded better results than 5 lucky shots out of 1,000? Thanks!

Re: Requesting advice on how to successfully focus specifically on hummingbirds in flight.

normadel — Tue, 25 Jun 2024 02:58:19 GMT

The only way I have gotten good shots of hummingbirds is when they are hovering at my feeder. And you only have a second to get the shot. Manually focus on the spot it is going to, or autofocus on the spot and wait for the bird. You don't have time to focus on the bird when you see it standing still. Take high-speed sequences so you can pick the best image. Framing, stopping action and focus are trial and error.

The best, suitable for framing image i have taken was on film with my trusty old Canon AE-1 Program. No digital technology and gimmicks involved.

Re: Requesting advice on how to successfully focus specifically on hummingbirds in flight.

Tintype_18 — Tue, 25 Jun 2024 14:26:01 GMT

We take photos of hummingbirds at a feeder outside the kitchen window. Fast speeds and appropriate ISO (or set at automatic) are a must. Wife uses a SX530 HS and I use a T7. I have sat in the kitchen with the camera set, focused and on a tripod. I have a cable remote to "fire" the camera. We probably have a couple hundred photos. Will dig through the archives and post one on the Gallery. My wife has a goal of finding a hummingbird nest.

Re: Requesting advice on how to successfully focus specifically on hummingbirds in flight.

johnrmoyer — Tue, 25 Jun 2024 19:22:38 GMT

I also have an EOS R5 and I use tracking and eye focus. I hope some of this might be helpful. I usually autofocus on a flower at about the same distance as the bird and then focus on the bird.

Ruby-throated Hummingbird (Archilochus colubris) on Salvia greggii in Norman, Oklahoma, United States, July 22, 2023

The above photo is at https://www.rsok.com/~jrm/2023Jul23_birds_and_cats/2023jul22_hummingbird_IMG_4930c.html and was made with these settings as reported by exiftool:

EXIF:Image	ExposureTime	1/500
EXIF:Image	FNumber	6.3
EXIF:Image	ISO	2000
MakerNotes:Camera	ContinuousDrive	Continuous, High+
MakerNotes:Camera	FocusMode	AI Servo AF
MakerNotes:Camera	CameraISO	Auto
MakerNotes:Camera	MeteringMode	Evaluative
MakerNotes:Camera	FocusRange	Auto
MakerNotes:Camera	CanonExposureMode	Flexible-priority AE
MakerNotes:Camera	ImageStabilization	On (2) (mode 3)
MakerNotes:Camera	SafetyShift	Disable
MakerNotes:Camera	DigitalLensOptimizer	Standard
MakerNotes:Camera	PeripheralLightingSetting	Off
MakerNotes:Camera	DistortionCorrectionSetting	Off
MakerNotes:Camera	AFConfigTool	Case 1
MakerNotes:Camera	AFTrackingSensitivity	0
MakerNotes:Camera	AFAccelDecelTracking	0
MakerNotes:Camera	AFPointSwitching	-1
MakerNotes:Camera	AIServoFirstImage	Equal Priority
MakerNotes:Camera	AIServoSecondImage	Equal Priority
MakerNotes:Camera	OneShotAFRelease	Focus Priority
MakerNotes:Camera	AutoAFPointSelEOSiTRAF	Enable
MakerNotes:Camera	LensDriveWhenAFImpossible	Continue Focus Search
MakerNotes:Camera	SelectAFAreaSelectionMode	Single-point AF, Auto, Zone AF, AF Point Expansion (4 point), Spot AF, AF Point Expansion (8 point), [6], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14]
MakerNotes:Camera	AFPointDisplayDuringFocus	Selected (constant)
MakerNotes:Camera	SubjectToDetect	Animals
MakerNotes:Camera	EyeDetection	On
MakerNotes:Camera	RollAngle	-0.7
MakerNotes:Camera	PitchAngle	-3.4
MakerNotes:Camera	FocalLength	300 mm
MakerNotes:Image	FocusDistanceUpper	3.68 m
MakerNotes:Image	FocusDistanceLower	3.35 m
MakerNotes:Image	ShutterMode	Electronic First Curtain
MakerNotes:Time	TimeZoneCity	Chicago
MakerNotes:Time	DaylightSavings	On
MakerNotes:Time	TimeStamp	2023:07:22 08:56:38.15
Composite:Camera	LensID	Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS II USM

Since you wrote that you only wanted responses from those who had photographed hummingbirds, these are most of the hummingbird photos that I have put on my web server. I have become more skilled as time has passed.

Re: Requesting advice on how to successfully focus specifically on hummingbirds in flight.

garymak — Tue, 25 Jun 2024 20:18:20 GMT

Yeah, I agree, that's the "golden moment," the brief moment as they hover before landing! Anna's seem to hover for oh, say, 0.4", while the Rufous seem to hover much longer, around 0.9"... twice as long. 🙄 And yes, it requires fast reflexes, intense concentration, and again, luck of focus, because if you are not focused exactly where they are "hovering", even if you catch them hovering, your autofocus will never work, so again, it gets back to pre-focusing where you think they might hover.

My issue with the above high-speed-pick-your-best-shot-later is that it requires a very high ISO, and generally wide aperture/ shallow DoF even on a very bright day, which then degrades the image upon enlargement...and of course the shallow DoF increases the need for exact focus...

Re: Requesting advice on how to successfully focus specifically on hummingbirds in flight.

garymak — Tue, 25 Jun 2024 20:22:36 GMT

I use all of the above as well. The issue is still "focus in flight." Taking an image of a bird (any bird) sitting at a feeder is a no-brainer. They are still, so manual or auto-focus doesn't matter. Heck, shutter speed hardly matters at that point. This issue is of how to capture accurate focus on hummingbirds in flight.

Re: Requesting advice on how to successfully focus specifically on hummingbirds in flight.

garymak — Tue, 25 Jun 2024 20:37:56 GMT

Much thanks for the details and nice photo. I will review the images later. Yes, in this scenario, the "flower" becomes the substitute focal point, and makes for a nice, natural shot, such as you have posted. Good technique (which still requires patience to be sure!) Unfortunately, I don't have that in my yard. I'm trying to isolate the birds as they come into the feeder - at that "golden moment" mentioned in the exchange with "normadel" above. Examples:

Graphic Converter shows focus area, which was PRE-FOCUSED, and luckily the bird hovered right in it.This was the result.Talk about "luck" - autofocus grabbed the hook of the feeder but the bird flew into the exact same plane as the focus......resulting in this headshot.

Re: Requesting advice on how to successfully focus specifically on hummingbirds in flight.

johnrmoyer — Wed, 26 Jun 2024 12:15:07 GMT

If I start with the focus distance near the distance of the hummingbird or other bird, then I find that the EOS R5 will often focus on the eye of the bird when eye detection is enabled. To get the focus to nearly the right distance, I auto focus first on something high contrast at near the same distance as the bird, or turn the focus ring on the lens to get close. For birds with wings moving rapidly, I sometimes hold down the shutter button and keep the photo that has the wings in the position that pleases me most. I do not put out a humming bird feeder, but try to have some flowers in pots near a chair I sit in outside my house.

I also miss many shots. I am old and slow. But I am getting better with practice.

Ruby-throated Hummingbird (Archilochus colubris) in Norman, Oklahoma, United States, July 22, 2023. The bird was partially obscured by out of focus foliage, but the eye detection on the EOS R5 managed to find the eye.Ruby-throated Hummingbird (Archilochus colubris) on Salvia farinacea in Norman, Oklahoma, United States, September 28, 2023. The humming bird was going from sunlight to shade to sunlight, but the EOS R5 eye detection managed to find the eye. The wings are blurry from motion, but the eye is not because the bird had stopped at a flower. I held down the shutter button and kept the best photo.

Re: Requesting advice on how to successfully focus specifically on hummingbirds in flight.

Tintype_18 — Wed, 26 Jun 2024 12:20:59 GMT

All of our photos were the hummingbird hovering at the feeder. Never had one land on the feeder. There are "roosts" available that look like a trapeze for them to land on. Ours fly up to a hickory or poplar tree and sit on a limb. Last year, we have one that would land on a limb in the hickory tree. If another h'bird came to the feeder outside the kitchen window, he would dive bomb it and chase it away.

John

Re: Requesting advice on how to successfully focus specifically on hummingbirds in flight.

jmaurophoto — Mon, 26 Aug 2024 12:10:43 GMT

Good luck with that. I have a feeder hanging off my deck. I capture them at or as they approach the feeder. The approach is more-or-less "in-flight," so what you might consider is caching them at about the feeder, and then removing the feeder from your photo with PS. I have tried Av with the flash at sync speed (1/200) and have gotten pretty decent results, but even at that, there is no way to "stop" the wings. Right now I am trying Tv set to 1/1600, f/5.6 and ISO 800, with the flash set to ETTL/HSS, and also without the flash. The flash EX600II-RT helps stop the wings. The feeder is in bright sunlight. I am using an EOS R5 with RF 70-200 f/2.8 and triggering it remotely with an RF remote trigger. So far it looks like I have gotten a few decent shots. It takes a lot of patience. There was a ruby throated HB flying around but this one kept chasing him away :-).

All processed in Lightroom and noise reduced with Topaz AI. The camera was set to AF on animal's eye. For the most part it worked very well.

ISO800, f/2.8, 1/1600, 89mm Flash did fire

ISO1000, f/6.3, 1/800, 100mm, Flash did not fire

ISO 1000, f/6.3, 100mm, 1/800, Flash did not fire

Re: Requesting advice on how to successfully focus specifically on hummingbirds in flight.

zakslm — Sun, 25 Aug 2024 23:33:07 GMT

This a quite a timely topic for me.

Yesterday there were 1 or 2 Anna's visiting some newly bloomed flowers just over my backyard wall. They sometimes perch on small branches and seem to just "chill" for a while and if I have my camera or set up my camera and go back out to photograph them, sometimes they're still there. It seems to be an area that they are attracted to so I can observe them and photograph them perched, sometimes hovering but rarely get anything decent when they are in flight.

When in flight, they're so fast and they zig-zag in 3 dimensions so randomly, I'm lucky if they're in the frame somewhere, in the depth of focus and distinguishable as hummingbirds. What comes to mind as a comparbale challenge vs. your camera's autofocus system (excuse the movie reference) is Mr. Miyagi and Daniel trying to catch flies with chop sticks. In other words based on my experience, a bit of preparation and a lot of luck goes further than relying only on the amazing technology and features of current cameras.

For example, below are a couple of shots I took as a hummingbird left the perch. I was using the center focus point on my Rebel T7 in One Shot Focus in Aperture Priority at F7.1, ISO 200. Given that the T7 is only capable of 3fps, I was in single shooting and I think I can at least equal 3fps manually tapping the shutter button. Shutter speed on the first shot was 1/1250th and the second was 1/1000th. The 2 crops below were the only shots in my attempts to catch the bird in flight where you tell it's a bird.

I was luckier a couple of months ago. At dawn, I saw this guy feeding on some flowers in the backyard. I focused on the flower as it hovered, flew away then came back. This shot is of it flying back. I was in Manual with auto ISO. Camera set to F7.1, 1000th Sec, (ISO 1600) and used an external speedlite set for High Speed Sync.

So to summarize, I would suggest you keep doing what works best for you given your location and set up and take some guidance from a quote that I think is attributable to Lee Trevino who said, "The more I practice, the luckier I get".

Good luck!

Re: Requesting advice on how to successfully focus specifically on hummingbirds in flight.

garymak — Mon, 26 Aug 2024 00:21:16 GMT

I thought that was Arnold Palmer, but hey, I'm not a golfer!🤣

Yes, I have about 4,000 images so far this year (thank goodness for digital images and not film!,) with barely about 1% meeting my criteria: tack sharp, well-lit, mid-flight. (I let the hummingbirds do their own posing. 😅) I've gotten results with multiple methods, but more results with "standing by" with a pre-focused spot based on immediate past flight patterns, then switching to AF horizontal long rectangle while on the feeder, then waiting for the slight poop to indicate the bird is ready to take off, and hoping my reflexes and burst mode on the R5 will capture it in flight. Sometimes I'm very lucky and it takes off and hovers and comes back again. Usually, the AF will work to track it (I have better luck with the "0" setting on tracking, locking on to the subject.). Those have produced a higher success rate.

Usually the lighting in my yard permits ISO 800-1600, ƒ8-16, 1/2000-1/3000ss. Usually use a 100-500mm ƒ5.6L. On occasion a 24-105mm ƒ4L. One thing (on another discussion board) the would be VERY useful for these kinds of situations is a short range limiter on these lenses that have a long-range limiter already on them, such as the 100-500mm (i.e., not just a switch limiting the range from say 3m-infinity so it can skip the short range focusing, but rather, also a long range limiter, say "min focus - 4m" so that it doesn't go beyond that range and get lost hunting for and focusing on objects in "infinity" when I already know that the birds (or whatever subject) is going to be 4m or less from the camera!) I digress...

I have experimented with some success (not too much now...) with using my Speedlight, but at a much slower shutter speeds (1/60th-1/100th) and very high ƒ-stops (like ƒ18-20, just below maximum) and very LOW ISO, like 100-200 (with variations due to ambient light of course.) Those settings are based on concept that the flash burst speed is about 10x faster than the fastest shutter speed on a camera, so you use the flash to be your actual shutter speed to "stop action." (There's a balance between your actual shutter speed bringing in just the right amount of ambient light so it's not pitch black in the background (although that works nicely, too) but not enough to bring in any image of the bird (which would just be blurry at that speed) and let the flash stop the action.)

The advantage of this is that with guessing the pre-focus spot, the maximum ƒ-stop settings also brings with it the maximum DoF - unlike at ƒ8 or so when using just the sunlight and a very high SS - which gives you more leeway (a.k.a. "forgiveness") in where your bird ends up vis-a-vis a-vis your focus spot. Further, at 10x the "shutter speed," it'll jolly well completely stop a hummingbird's wings completely! As I said, in theory, this can produce a great shot, but with the Speedlight's HSS, you don't get many shots at its full power, so the later images on burst mode get darker. So this too, needs a large dollop of "luck" to come away with a good image...

... Oh, and as we all know, a huge dollop of "patience", requisite for any wildlife photography...😉😁

Re: Requesting advice on how to successfully focus specifically on hummingbirds in flight.

garymak — Mon, 26 Aug 2024 00:25:13 GMT

"ISO 800-1600, ƒ8-11, 1/2000-1/3000ss." not "ISO 800-1600, ƒ8-16, 1/2000-1/3000ss"

Re: Requesting advice on how to successfully focus specifically on hummingbirds in flight.

wq9nsc — Tue, 27 Aug 2024 11:32:57 GMT

Technique will definitely improve the odds but there is still going to be luck involved in capturing highly dynamic events with a camera. I shoot primarily sports but I spent a few minutes yesterday afternoon capturing a hummingbird that was hanging out by the trumpet vine near the pool.

With sports photography, I always tell people trying to learn the basics that the three most important decisions in shooting sports are location, location, and location. Photographing wildlife is very much the same because you will have an extremely small keeper rate if there is a high probability that something is likely to partially block the view, if the chosen point of photography is likely to have the subject constantly in and out of blocking branches, and/or if the lighting is going to be so sub-optimal that even a good capture is fairly poor with details lost to shadow or strong back illumination.

No camera or lens can focus instantly so you want to stake out your location and then choose a high probability focal point of interest and pre-focus on something in the same focal plane. Now your camera/lens combo has a much better chance of grabbing sharp focus in the tiny amount of time the subject is in that great location. So patience becomes a huge factor waiting for the variables to fall in line and the temptation is great to start capturing a lot of sub-optimal photos which will of course keep you distracted from that single optimal moment you set up.

Professionally I am a marketing prof with a PhD in marketing and for much of my career I did research and consulting in enterprise risk management. I apply this general approach to many things in life including photography because with risk management you are trying to shift the odds to increase the likelihood of a favorable result and decrease the likelihood of a negative outcome but even the best risk management never guarantees a specific perfect outcome-it just greatly increases the probability of that or an acceptably similar outcome. Think of wildlife or any fast action photography in those terms, there isn't any single magic bullet but instead a range of tactics and activities that increases the likelihood of achieving what you want.

With fall HS sports coming up, I wanted to test my recently cleaned and checked EF 400 f2.8 glass and this hummingbird was casually captured Monday afternoon. I noticed his/her activity and chose a fairly good spot but otherwise I didn't put in a lot of effort including just shooting handheld even though the 1DX III and EF 400 f2.8 is a fairly heavy combo. This was captured with the lens stepped down to f4, shutter @ 1/1600, and ISO set to auto which in this case was ISO 200 so pretty much the same setup I use for sports. I used small zone AF set to the center zone of the array and pre-focused on a group of flowers near where I expected the bird to appear and then waited for a few minutes and the hummingbird rewarded me by showing up fairly quickly.

Rodger

1DX III, EF 400 f2.8, 1/1600, f4, ISO 200, servo AF case IV

Re: Requesting advice on how to successfully focus specifically on hummingbirds in flight.

garymak — Tue, 27 Aug 2024 21:36:54 GMT

Nice capture!! thanks very much for taking the time to describe your technique and settings details. This is not too far off from my settings. I'm beginning to think that there is a better opportunity with hummingbirds around flowers than feeders. We don't have flowers in our yard. We have a wall of tall (50'+) Leyland Cyprus trees that provide a great nesting resource for the hummingbirds (and others) and a wonderful mottled green backdrop for the photos:

Rufous @ ƒ711/ 1/2000 s/ ISO800 Lens focal length: 500mm R5+ RF100-500mm F4.5-7.1 L IS USM Manual exposureRufous @ ƒ7.1/ 1/2000 s/ ISO800 Lens focal length: 500mm R5+ RF100-500mm F4.5-7.1 L IS USM Manual exposureAna's @ ƒ7.1/ 1/2000 s/ ISO800 Lens focal length: 105 mm R5+ RF24-105mm F4 L IS USM L IS USM Manual exposureRufous @ ƒ9.0/ 1/2500 s/ ISO1250 Lens focal length: 363.0 mm R5+RF100-500mm F4.5-7.1 L IS USM Manual exposureRufous @ ƒ9.0/ 1/2500 s/ ISO1250 Lens focal length: 363.0 mm R5+RF100-500mm F4.5-7.1 L IS USM Manual exposureRufous @ ƒ7.1/ 1/2000 s/ ISO800 Lens focal length: 105 mm R5+ RF24-105mm F4 L IS USM L IS USM Manual exposureAnna's @ ƒ8.0/ 1/2500 s/ ISO800 Lens focal length: 324.0 mm R5+RF100-500mm F4.5-7.1 L IS USM Manual exposure

(Not sure what happened to all the data I meticulously added for each photo, but that's the problem with this clunky website.🙄 Not doing it over, though. Roughly, the images were taken either @ ƒ7.1/ 1/2000 s/ ISO800 Lens focal length: 500mm R5+ RF100-500mm F4.5-7.1 L IS USM Manual exposure OR ƒ9 or ƒ11 @ 1/2000 s/ ISO800 Lens focal length: 105mm R5+ RF24-105mm F4 L IS USM Manual exposure

But, over time and seeing other photos and seeing other humming bird situations, it seems that they hover a very short time at a feeder before diving in, and, importantly, when they are finished feeding, the just poop and dart off, back to the nest. At flowers, however, once they finish one flower, they are drawn to the next couple or so, and don't dart over, but hover around, looking and choosing the next one. At a feeder, they seem to take their fill from the relatively large supply, and, since they're "done", buzz off right away.

Anyway, thanks for the details. A lot of good confirmation in there.

Re: Requesting advice on how to successfully focus specifically on hummingbirds in flight.

zakslm — Tue, 27 Aug 2024 21:54:10 GMT

Stunning photos!

Re: Requesting advice on how to successfully focus specifically on hummingbirds in flight.

garymak — Wed, 28 Aug 2024 02:10:54 GMT

Thank you. (After 10,000 shots, you're bound to get a couple of good ones in there! 😅)

Re: Requesting advice on how to successfully focus specifically on hummingbirds in flight.

wq9nsc — Wed, 28 Aug 2024 03:10:58 GMT

Great captures Gary and they are fascinating creatures. I first "met" them shortly after I bought my place in the country and there was a forecast that the visible aurora might extend as far south as central IL. I set up a blanket outside to comfortably watch the sky at dusk with a glass of rum punch sitting next to me. I heard the classic "buzzing" sound and saw four of them trying to sip from my glass so I went inside and mixed them a glass of sugar water and put a top and straw on mine since rum would not be good for them!

The trumpet vine works well for them because it has a lot of flowers in different arrangements and at different levels but it isn't great for photography because there is a lot of cover.

Thank you for sharing those incredible captures, they are stunning!

Rodger

Re: Requesting advice on how to successfully focus specifically on hummingbirds in flight.

garymak — Fri, 30 Aug 2024 17:22:47 GMT

Thanks very much.

I should add that I learned that trying to do this "automatically" relying on the autofocus system was my original motivation. And it didn't work well at all. 😬 Frankly, I was hoping to set up my camera on the deck, but sit inside on a comfortable chair in the comfort of my kitchen with an expresso or cup of tea (depending on time of day,) relax with the door closed, and just wait for the hummingbirds to show up, when I'd then press the button on my remote and have the camera do the rest... I still say that wasn't a bad motivation and plan.

However, the camera simple can't focus. So, taking a monopod to take the weight off holding the camera, I can still stay inside the kitchen, albeit not as comfortably, but have to have the door open, which is fine in summer ( not so good in other seasons ) and wait on edge in a state of constant high alert, and then actively track the hummingbirds when they come... That produced a much higher percentage of good shots.

So, the moral of the storyis : don't drink coffee when photographing hummingbirds!😉

Re: Requesting advice on how to successfully focus specifically on hummingbirds in flight.

Cman44 — Sun, 22 Sep 2024 12:15:44 GMT

Getting a high hit rate for Hummingbirds if very hard to do. You need to get the ones that pause at a flower for instance. Having a setup with trees and bushes as background is important to get the shots you want.

My best shots have been at flowers that I placed within the area (my back deck) on hooks in pots. I have feeders up to draw them to the area. Sometimes I remove a few of the feeders to entice them to go to the flowers. Sometimes I get a vase and cut a stalk of Salvia or Turks Cap flowers sticking up. I try to shoot as level as possible. When they start going to the flowers I get a eye dropper and prime some of the flowers with sugar water that i also use for the feeders. No red stuff, please. 1 part sugar to 4 parts water. You can mix some 1-3 that might be even more enticing.

As for settings you probably are good. I use back button focus, eye detection animals, 20 fps. A hassle to go through and have more cards on hand. It's time consuming , but satisfying when you start getting the shots. I don't use flash. I was scaring the heck out of the birds.

I've been feeding them for over 30 years so they find there way to my house every year. From late August to early October is the migration. If I'm going to shoot I plan ahead to obtain the flowers. Good Luck