topic Re: Thoughts on EOS R1 sensor in EOS DSLR & Mirrorless Cameras

Thoughts on EOS R1 sensor

Frito-1 — Thu, 18 Jul 2024 18:01:48 GMT

Hi All,

I have to admit that the 24MP sensor in the flagship camera is a bit of a disappointment. I would like higher resolution without having to use PhotoShop to stitch pictures together. Any one know why Canon did not go with a resolution closer to the R5?

Thanks in advance,

Fred

Re: Canon R1

kvbarkley — Thu, 18 Jul 2024 18:00:34 GMT

Probably to keep the frame rate up, and get good noise performance.

Re: Thoughts on EOS R1 sensor

jrhoffman75 — Thu, 18 Jul 2024 19:29:02 GMT

This is what Canon stated in the 1D X Mark III white paper. I suspect the same rationale applies to R1.

Re: Thoughts on EOS R1 sensor

JFG — Sat, 20 Jul 2024 00:14:14 GMT

John,

Great information! That Canon Statement says it all. Having said that there will be those that won't understand marketing and market segmentation.

Re: Thoughts on EOS R1 sensor

Tronhard — Fri, 19 Jul 2024 23:32:18 GMT

Hi Fred and welcome to the forum!

There is not ONE 'flagship' camera: there are, and always were at least two - but for separate markets.

To understand this, one needs to understand the relationship between features, benefits and value - Marketing 101. A feature is a characteristic of a device or service that is specific to that product. A benefit is specific to users of products or a market of users, and varies with what they need to either improve performance or remove a constraint to their use of the product and achieve their goals. Value is only attained when a feature matches a benefit.

So, with that under our belts, look at which market the 1D series was historically aligned to: photojournalists, news and sports - and that is why these are coming out in time for the Olympics, as they generally do. So what features do those markets need? They need extremely good focus, low light performance, fast recording and the benefits to them are :ability to upload quickly and reliably in real time to their agencies or clients, who will be publishing those images on line or in smaller-sized printed format. What they DON'T need is extremely large files that will slow down focus and tracking, shooting, buffering, and take up file space and connectivity band width. So, look at the history - the 1 series have always hovered in the 20-24MP range, because larger files are not offering benefits to those markets, and thus are of no value.

That is where the second 'flagship' comes in. The 5 series (5d's and now R5's). They are the general-purpose units that offer features that will be of benefit to those who don't necessarily need that level of connectivity, but instead want resolution to allow cropping, large prints and fine details. That market includes commercial product, wildlife, landscape, fashion, portrait, wedding and other social events. So they will forfeit the high-speed download and some superior dynamic range capabilities of FF those sensors with larger, but fewer photosites.

The R5II shared the same focusing/tracking, IBIS and processors with the R1, so it's no slouch, but it's forte is resolution for larger output and the ability to crop. The R5II does offer options for those with a foot in both camps: for those who need specific benefits in performance, they can enhance the body with the 3 different battery grips to offer specific features that a) give enhanced connectivity, b)offer extra cooling for video and c) the more traditional grip that offers extra battery capacity and portrait controls and also works with the R6 series.

If you take all that into account, and you wanted more resolution, you were looking at the wrong camera, the R1 was not made for you, the R5II likely was.

Re: Thoughts on EOS R1 sensor

JFG — Sat, 20 Jul 2024 00:25:40 GMT

Trevor,

Like always, you hit the nail on the head with your response. A little common sense, and knowledge of market segmentation goes a long way. There is not one camera, be it Canon, Nikon, Sony, Leica or Hasselblad, that can be "The All" (the one), camera for everyone and every need. If there were one, it would be so expensive that no one could afford it. Like you mentioned, there is not one Flagship Canon Camera, there are two, the R1 and R5 along with other models to meet different budgets, needs, and levels of expertise. Those that are serious about purchasing new or used cameras need to think about: What they will need it for; What features they really need; What is their budget for said camera.

Re: Thoughts on EOS R1 sensor

jhog1978 — Mon, 22 Jul 2024 13:54:48 GMT

I agree — 24.1 MP for a flagship camera is VERY disappointing. That said, I’m thrilled with my R3. Even though it only has 24 MP, the image quality is amazing. I traded a 5DS (with 51 MP) for the R3 and took a huge leap UP in quality. Only thing I can guess is that Canon thinks the image quality with this “new/improved” sensor will override the MP issue. I have my doubts, and as anxious as I was to immediately upgrade to the R1 when it came out, there’s no way I will be doing that for a 0.1 increase in MP count. Canon, this is an EPIC fail !

Re: Thoughts on EOS R1 sensor

Stephen — Mon, 22 Jul 2024 13:58:31 GMT

This is exactly it.

Re: Thoughts on EOS R1 sensor

Frito-1 — Mon, 22 Jul 2024 16:11:34 GMT

Thank you for your response! The R5 mark ii is the correct fit for me given the specifications for both cameras. I would have liked something between. I get the issues with the large files, however, the continued advances in technology most likely will wipe out that concern. Storage is cheap and bandwidth is ever increasing. Look how far we have come in the last 20 years. 15 years ago, It took me 5 hours to render a 30 minute video that contains stills and video. Today, with UHD it takes about 10minutes. When spending over $6k on a body, I would like it to have a larger sensor that has technology to eliminate noise. It should also possess the technology that makes the files scalable for transfers. I can cut the file size for a transfer. I cannot expand the base detail that does not exist. Thanks again

Re: Thoughts on EOS R1 sensor

KifsterMD — Tue, 30 Jul 2024 14:18:03 GMT

Ehhhh, I'm going to have to disagree with your argument here. I think you're missing the point, to be frank.

Most people understand that the R5 and R1 series serve different purposes and that the R1 is geared more towards performance rather than high resolution. And indeed, I think most people understand that a lower pixel count helps overall performance (e.g. shooting speed, decreased noise, faster workflow, etc.).

The issue is that, five years after the release of the 1DX Mark 3 (a 20.1mp camera), Canon should have been able to achieve this better performance with a pixel count higher than 24mp (which is fairly negligible improvement from its predecessor in terms of resolution). I would have expected something around 30mp by now.

And let's face it: when you spend $6200 on a camera (regardless of your daytime job), you'd like a little more versatility with it regardless of its intended purpose. At 24mp, the versatility isn't there - you don't have a heck of a lot of resolution with which to work. 30mp would have been the minimum. I suspect Canon knows this. Sony and Nikon certainly understand that their sports/photojournalism cameras should offer more than 24mp and they certainly delivered... and with similar or better performance specs to those of the R1.

The bottom line is that Canon's sensor technology is falling behind and this R1 is a glaring manifestation of this fact. They can continue to make the "you don't need..." argument to placate customers, but a lot of us aren't buying it anymore. You can be absolutely sure that the R1 Mark III, when it comes out a decade from now, won't be sporting a 5,000 frames-per-second shooting speed with a 24mp sensor "because that's all the resolution we need for photojournalism and sports". Know what I mean?

Re: Thoughts on EOS R1 sensor

KifsterMD — Tue, 30 Jul 2024 13:16:19 GMT

Yes, no one camera can can be the master of all. But I think Sony's and Nikon's flagship cameras are much more versatile while still being extremely good at the R1's specialty.

The Nikon Z9 offers 45mp - nearly twice the resolution of the R1. You can definitely shoot landscape and studio photos with 45. And I cannot imagine Canon's AF and low-light performance being that much better than the Z9's to justify half the resolution.

Re: Thoughts on EOS R1 sensor

Stephen — Tue, 30 Jul 2024 14:01:25 GMT

I think you may be missing that the R1 is for a very specific audience who have told us they don't want a high-resolution camera. It slows down their workflow while at events. Think about the Games in Paris happening right now. These photographers need to get images now to their respective agencies so they can publish as quickly as possible. Can you imagine how flakey the WiFi is there? Now imagine if they had to deal with a 50mp image. Yikes!

Re: Thoughts on EOS R1 sensor

jrhoffman75 — Tue, 30 Jul 2024 14:17:02 GMT

@Stephen wrote:

I think you may be missing that the R1 is for a very specific audience who have told us they don't want a high-resolution camera. It slows down their workflow while at events. Think about the Games in Paris happening right now. These photographers need to get images now to their respective agencies so they can publish as quickly as possible. Can you imagine how flakey the WiFi is there? Now imagine if they had to deal with a 50mp image. Yikes!

Jeff Cable is a Canon photog who is posting from the Olympics. From his blog:

"Now, for those of you who are into photography and cameras, let me tell you about the Canon R1. The focus on this camera is absolutely AMAZING! In past Olympics, my take rate when photographing gymnastics was maybe 40% in perfect focus. With the Canon R1 I have a 95% take rate. This is crazy! And at 30 fps I ended up with more than 5,000 images to choose from. Trying to select my favorites was daunting!! When this camera locks in, it holds. And it locks in so fast that when I hit the focus button with the gymnast in mid air, it still locks on their face perfectly. This is a game changer. Even I am blown away. With that said, I am not using the pre-capture mode because I am already blasting off too many photos as it is. But I am excited to use that feature for birds in Africa and Costa Rica."

Re: Thoughts on EOS R1 sensor

John_SD — Tue, 30 Jul 2024 14:39:18 GMT

I'm certainly not in the market for a flagship camera, but if I were and as someone who takes a fair amount of landscape photos as well as some wildlife, it wouldn't be the overpriced 24MP R1. I would be looking at the 45MP Z9, but that's just me.

Re: Thoughts on EOS R1 sensor

jrhoffman75 — Tue, 30 Jul 2024 14:46:02 GMT

I think Canon would agree with your use case, except for the Z9 part 😀.
“MELVILLE, N.Y., July 17, 2024 — Canon U.S.A., Inc., a leader in digital imaging solutions, today launched two new professional full-frame mirrorless cameras, the EOS R1 and EOS R5 Mark II. The EOS R1 camera is designed for both professional still photographers and video creators in a wide range of fields including sports, news reporting and high-end video production. The EOS R5 Mark II camera features improved video focused features for the advanced creators and real-time multi recognition tracking system for those who focus on still photography.”

Re: Thoughts on EOS R1 sensor

Frito-1 — Tue, 30 Jul 2024 15:05:19 GMT

I get the issues with the large files, however, the continued advances in technology most likely will wipe out that concern. Storage is cheap and bandwidth is ever increasing. When spending over $6k on a body, I would like it to have a larger sensor that has technology to eliminate noise. It should also possess the technology that makes the files scalable for transfers. I can cut the file size for a transfer. I cannot expand the base detail that does not exist. Thanks again

Re: Thoughts on EOS R1 sensor

KifsterMD — Tue, 30 Jul 2024 15:31:44 GMT

I understand that argument. It sounds nice and it's a very convenient argument (or dare I say "excuse") for Canon, but it doesn't seem very plausible.

Ask yourself:

Do you think Canon knows something about sports photography and photojournalism that Nikon and Sony do not? Do you think Canon did more 'market research' than Nikon and Sony did? I seriously doubt it. You think Canon has more of an interest in making equipment for these areas of photography than Nikon or Sony? Not a chance.

A far more likely explanation is that Canon is lagging behind in terms of sensor and/or processing technology and this is why they delivered a 24mp camera, in 2024. Sony and Nikon both offer cameras for the same 'very specific audience' that offer superb autofocus, fast frame-rates, low noise, and are well-suited to sports and photojournalism.... with twice the resolution! Twice!!

Want lower resolution from the Nikon and Sony cameras because the wifi is "flaky"? You can shoot in lower resolution modes. But the versatility of higher resolution is there if/when you need it...... (like when the WiFi isn't "flaky".....).

Re: Thoughts on EOS R1 sensor

Stephen — Tue, 30 Jul 2024 15:43:07 GMT

Believe what you like, it's your prerogative, but did you happen to notice we released another camera alongside the R1? The R5 Mark II, and that's the model that's intended for most photographers that need super-high resolution and very similar features.

Re: Thoughts on EOS R1 sensor

kvbarkley — Tue, 30 Jul 2024 15:55:52 GMT

If you really want Canon to hear this, send feedback. We can do less than a military chaplain, here.

Go to the main canon usa page and find the little '+' button:

Re: Thoughts on EOS R1 sensor

KifsterMD — Tue, 30 Jul 2024 16:21:08 GMT

I’m an amateur photographer, but I’m a loyal Canon user and would never switch to another brand. So yes, I saw the R5 Mark 2.

Sony and Nikon offer the R1 and R5 Mark 2 rolled into one with their pro cameras. Both offer the higher resolution of the R52 with the shooting performance (more or less) of the R1.

Canon has some catching up to do.