topic Re: EOS R5 Birds in canopy — blurry! in EOS DSLR & Mirrorless Cameras

EOS R5 Birds in canopy — blurry!

catsongs — Thu, 23 May 2024 13:08:27 GMT

Aloha from Honolulu,

Upgraded from a Canon 80D to an R5 to capture white terns in flight.

The R5 can take some mind-blowingly brilliant shots.

But...

But when the terns fly in and dance about above my head in the canopy, I get hundreds of well-composed blurry photos. Very frustrating.

I'm shooting TV with 1/1250 to 1/1600 shutter speed. Using the 70-200mm lens.

The problem is clearly the focusing. The R5 can't find something in the terns' plumage to focus on.

I've tried a variety of AF options, but no luck so far.

I'm attaching a typical (screenshot) of the type of photo that gets trashed!

Honestly, I think I did better under the canopy with the 80D.

Any thoughts would be gratefully received!

Cat

Re: Birds in canopy — blurry!

Tronhard — Thu, 23 May 2024 07:59:46 GMT

You have not really provided the specific settings you are using for focus and tracking, so I shall start with some general comments with the proviso that this is but one method.

In default mode, the camera will focus on the closest objects, which could well not be what you want. Also, if you are shooting with animal eye tracking, it is possible that in combination with that full matrix mode, the eye lock will fall on a shadow rather than a bird's head.

With that in mind, my personal approach is to do the following:
I use single point centre focus with eye tracking and servo mode. What I do is point to the part of the bird I want to get in focus and use Back Button Focus (thus taking the shutter button out of the process) to lock on the bird . From there face/eye tracking has a much better chance of locking on what you want - holding down the AF-On button will track dynamically with the point of focus. If I lose focus, I can reposition the focus point in the centre by pressing the SET button inside the main wheel.

The following images were taken with that methodology: in the first image, the eye of the Red Panda is barely visible between moving branches and leaves, while in the second, the conditions were very, very dim and lacking in dynamic range - and of course the Bell Bird was camouflaged to blend in.
Red Panda@10m: R5, RF 200-800@ 600mm, f/9, 1/500sec, ISO-6400 247mm, f/5, 1/125sec, ISO-3200
I have other images to demonstrate this method, but don't have access right now to that computer.

Re: Birds in canopy — blurry!

catsongs — Thu, 23 May 2024 08:29:15 GMT

Aloha e Trevor,

Appreciate your comments. Great shots.

The R5 is more complex than the 80D, so my settings started with those of YT bird photographers who seemed to know what they are doing. So the camera is no longer in default mode.

I tried the back button method "everyone" raves about. As the terns I'm shooting are moving quickly over my head, having to use two fingers to set up to take the shot was a disaster. For me at least. So I undid the back button set up. I can't focus fast enough using my thumb, I can if I focus pressing halfway down.

I've set the camera to ANMALS, but disabled the eye locator. (Bear with me, the R5 is new to me.)

When the terns are 10-50m away, or flying parallel to me, my shots are crisp as crisp can be. There's no need for the eye locator -- and it would work well in these situations.

When the terns are flying overhead, their wings often cover their eyes, or they're turned away, so there are no eyes for the camera to focus on. Thus, the eye AF just seemed to get in the way. I turned it off.

All the YT videos I watched on the animal/eye setting had animals moving far slower than my terns, with their eyes always visible.

So I've been experimenting with Animal/eye-disabled and trying out different AF settings hoping one of them might work with the terns above my head. Even with single point, the R5 seems unable to get anything on a tern, but does end up focusing on a leaf somewhere in the canopy, which ends up in focus.

The multiple focus setting works GREAT when the terns are flying against a blue sky: I have single terns and groups of terns in shockingly wonderful focus. And at 1/1250 or 1/1600 they are frozen in time and you can see every strand in every feather!

I do have a handful of fabulous shots of the birds above my head. I'm trying to back-engineer how I got them. No luck so far.

My challenges seem to be (as best as I can determine):

complex foliage in the background
rapid movement, both across the canopy (tern body) and when hovering (wings)
rapid changes in distance between the camera and the bird: think drunk bumblebees not soaring eagles
eyes not always visible
needing to shoot quickly: birds zooming in and hovering over my head then zipping off, birds feeding chicks then leaping into the air towards me, etc. (These are the challenging shots)

What I don't "get" is how I can have any number of AF setting engaged, placed directly on the tern, yet none of them seem able to focus quickly enough.

And yet sometimes I get that NatGeo shot that makes your jaw drop -- only I can't seem to figure out what make that shot work when all the others didn't!

I'm sure a lot of the above is R5 newbie mishmash, but if you had a few more thoughts I'd be grateful!

We have a juvenile learning to fly right now and I've missed so many "treasured moments." The juvenile will be off and away in the next 2 weeks or so. Hoping to document her development with better pix!

Mahalo nui loa!

Cat

aka Dr. Kirtland C. Peterson

Re: Birds in canopy — blurry!

johnrmoyer — Thu, 23 May 2024 12:08:34 GMT

@catsongs wrote:
Aloha e Trevor,
Appreciate your comments. Great shots.
The R5 is more complex than the 80D, so my settings started with those of YT bird photographers who seemed to know what they are doing. So the camera is no longer in default mode.
I tried the back button method "everyone" raves about. As the terns I'm shooting are moving quickly over my head, having to use two fingers to set up to take the shot was a disaster. For me at least. So I undid the back button set up. I can't focus fast enough using my thumb, I can if I focus pressing halfway down.
I've set the camera to ANMALS, but disabled the eye locator. (Bear with me, the R5 is new to me.)
The multiple focus setting works GREAT when the terns are flying against a blue sky: I have single terns and groups of terns in shockingly wonderful focus. And at 1/1250 or 1/1600 they are frozen in time and you can see every strand in every feather!
I do have a handful of fabulous shots of the birds above my head. I'm trying to back-engineer how I got them. No luck so far.
...
And yet sometimes I get that NatGeo shot that makes your jaw drop -- only I can't seem to figure out what make that shot work when all the others didn't!
...
Mahalo nui loa!
aka Dr. Kirtland C. Peterson

I also went from EOS 80D to EOS R5 and it was a shock to me that I could not use the same settings in the EOS R5. I do not watch YT videos or make National Geographic photos.

But, I think I can help with the reverse engineering of photos previously made if you have the raw files.

exiftool https://exiftool.org/ can decode most of the Auto Focus settings of the EOS R5 and even list the coordinates of the focus points. It is a command line program that I use on macOS and Debian Linux. Many years ago I used it on Windows, but no longer do Windows. I have included an example image with example exiftool command line and example output. I am old and slow and did not get eye focus and did not get the image framed very well. The hawk was attacking his reflection in the window I was standing at in my house.

Red-shouldered Hawk (Buteo lineatus) in Norman, Oklahoma, United States on May 21, 2024

exiftool -s -G0:2 -ContinuousDrive -FocusMode -RecordMode -MeteringMode \ 
-FocusContinuous -AFAreaMode -NumAFPoints -ValidAFPoints -AFAreaWidths \ 
-AELockMeterModeAfterFocus -AFConfigTool -AFTrackingSensitivity \ 
-AFAccelDecelTracking -AFPointSwitching -AIServoFirstImage -AIServoSecondImage \ 
-OneShotAFRelease -AutoAFPointSelEOSiTRAF -LensDriveWhenAFImpossible \ 
-SelectAFAreaSelectionMode  /Volumes/EOS_DIGITAL/DCIM/100CANON/IMG_9868.CR3
[MakerNotes:Camera] ContinuousDrive             : Continuous, Low
[MakerNotes:Camera] FocusMode                   : AI Servo AF
[MakerNotes:Camera] RecordMode                  : CR3+JPEG
[MakerNotes:Camera] MeteringMode                : Evaluative
[MakerNotes:Camera] FocusContinuous             : Single
[MakerNotes:Camera] AFAreaMode                  : Face + Tracking
[MakerNotes:Camera] NumAFPoints                 : 1053
[MakerNotes:Camera] ValidAFPoints               : 1
[MakerNotes:Camera] AFAreaWidths                : 683 0 0 0

...

[MakerNotes:Camera] AELockMeterModeAfterFocus   : Evaluative
[MakerNotes:Camera] AFConfigTool                : Case 1
[MakerNotes:Camera] AFTrackingSensitivity       : 0
[MakerNotes:Camera] AFAccelDecelTracking        : 0
[MakerNotes:Camera] AFPointSwitching            : -1
[MakerNotes:Camera] AIServoFirstImage           : Equal Priority
[MakerNotes:Camera] AIServoSecondImage          : Equal Priority
[MakerNotes:Camera] OneShotAFRelease            : Focus Priority
[MakerNotes:Camera] AutoAFPointSelEOSiTRAF      : Enable
[MakerNotes:Camera] LensDriveWhenAFImpossible   : Continue Focus Search
[MakerNotes:Camera] SelectAFAreaSelectionMode   : Single-point AF, Auto, Zone AF, AF Point Expansion (4 point), Spot AF, AF Point Expansion (8 point), [6], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14]

Re: Birds in canopy — blurry!

Tronhard — Thu, 23 May 2024 19:10:08 GMT

You are a brave man shooting birds directly over your head! I was out with a Canon sales guy demonstrating the R3 when it first appeared and, like you, shooting directly overhead at gannets doing aeronautical manoeuvres above when not one, but TWO large gannets unloaded a LOT of 'surplus digestive material' (so to speak) directly across them, scoring direct hits on the upturned cameras, heads clothes and bags. Luckily they had cleaning materials and lots of cloths to hand to clean things up.

I was lucky that I had moved a wee bit away to do some other shots so I was not impacted and glad to be so!

Re: Birds in canopy — blurry!

catsongs — Thu, 23 May 2024 23:32:21 GMT

Aloha e John,

Love that photo! That's exactly what I'm dealing with, repeatedly as terns fight over territory, learn to fly, dash off to get more fish for their chicks, etc.

Folks are shocked when they see where I shoot — where I teach — and see you can almost touch the birds. The proximity is a blessing, and a curse!

I will be giving your reverse-engineering suggestion a try! WOW!

Hoping to get more shots like these (this is a screenshot I texted to a friend):

Truly appreciated!

As for easier shoots, this morning I was shooting a "grandmother talking with her granddaughter" for a writing project. The R5 worked like a charm: quickly finding eyeballs, grabbing a tight focus, and producing stellar shots. Hundreds of them!

Mahalo nui loa!

Cat

Re: Birds in canopy — blurry!

catsongs — Thu, 23 May 2024 23:35:33 GMT

Aloha e Trevor,

LOL!

In Hawai'i, should a bird's business land on you, it's considered a blessing. I kid you not.

And we are VERY blessed where I teach.

As for aeronautical manoeuvres, thought this was a fun one! Screenshot:

Mahalo for your help!

Cheers!

Cat

Re: Birds in canopy — blurry!

johnrmoyer — Fri, 24 May 2024 02:34:47 GMT

I suggested a few more AF settings be added to exiftool today

https://exiftool.org/forum/index.php?topic=16068.0

Re: Birds in canopy — blurry!

catsongs — Fri, 24 May 2024 02:37:30 GMT

Tack så mycket tack tack!

Re: EOS R5 Birds in canopy — blurry!

Waddizzle — Fri, 24 May 2024 13:00:26 GMT

The camera will do whatever you ask it to do. Do not rely on the camera to do all the work as if it had an auto pilot.

Re: EOS R5 Birds in canopy — blurry!

catsongs — Fri, 24 May 2024 19:09:19 GMT

???

Not sure I'm getting your feedback.

Takk.

Re: EOS R5 Birds in canopy — blurry!

Waddizzle — Fri, 24 May 2024 20:23:50 GMT

@catsongs wrote:
???
Not sure I'm getting your feedback.
Takk.

“ The problem is clearly the focusing. The R5 can't find something in the terns' plumage to focus on. I've tried a variety of AF options, but no luck so far. ”

Is the problem the camera, the lens, the shooting conditions, or other? Be careful not to blame the camera for doing whatever you ask or tell it to do.

Complex shooting conditions are best met with simple camera settings. For these types of shots with a busy background, I would disable the advanced eye and animal tracking, and just rely on capturing the nearest thing to the camera.

Re: EOS R5 Birds in canopy — blurry!

catsongs — Sat, 25 May 2024 09:18:09 GMT

Aloha,

Yes, I'm realizing the shooting conditions are complex.

Today I set two back buttons, one for (animal) eyes, one for (animal) zone.

I've typically not used zone, so today was an experimental day.

I'm happy to say that I got some great "in the canopy" shots today.

While the eye locator had difficult, even with a tern sitting on her egg, the zone setting got a parent delivery fish nicely! Screenshot:

So my question to you is: What is "keep it simple" shooting a bird over your head under the tree canopy?

My (today's experimental) shoot would suggest TV 1/16000 / Animal / AF Zone.

Takk!

Cat

Re: Birds in canopy — blurry!

catsongs — Sat, 25 May 2024 09:24:41 GMT

Aloha e Trevor,

You inspired me to take a second look at the back buttons.

I set one for animal / eye, and one for animal / zone.

While the Zone didn't seem as good as a multiple point when I'm shooting a tern against a blue sky, I did get a number of great shots in the canopy. Screenshot:

Question —

I found the animal / eye settings frustrating.

Even with a mother tern sitting on an egg, the R5 had real difficulty finding the eye.

When it did: crisp!

What's your method for getting the focus to, say, target the bird's head so the eye locator has a better chance of (quickly) finding the eye (in conditions such as the tree canopy)?

Takk!

Cat

Re: Birds in canopy — blurry!

johnrmoyer — Sat, 25 May 2024 09:49:36 GMT

With my EOS R5, when I want to focus on the eye of a sitting bird, I will focus first on a large high contrast object at about the same distance like a tree trunk and then the camera finds the eye quickly.

For a flying bird, I am often too old and slow to get the shot.

Re: Birds in canopy — blurry!

catsongs — Sat, 25 May 2024 10:19:31 GMT

Aloha e John,

So you'd set a back button for, say, a spot focus, then when you've got the distance, press a 2nd button dedicated to eyes?

I won't ask how "old" you are, but I'm no spring chicken!

I do teach 7 and 8 year olds and they keep me on my feet! As do the terns!

Takk!

Cat

Re: Birds in canopy — blurry!

johnrmoyer — Sat, 25 May 2024 19:46:19 GMT

I do not use back button at all for focus. I point camera at tree trunk and half press shutter button to get approximate focus distance, then point at bird and half press and after eye detection frame the shot and full press shutter button. I might be a Luddite, but I like the half press better than back button. With tracking and eye detection, I have no need to focus first and then frame the shot and then press shutter.

If there is nothing high contrast at near the same distance, I turn the focus ring on the lens and then half press shutter button to detect bird eye.

I am so old that I wrote my first FORTRAN program in 1969. Six bit FORTRAN character set before ASCII, Hollerith code. Although by 1970, there was an ANSI standard for Hollerith code punched cards: https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/Legacy/FIPS/fipspub14.pdf X3.26-1970

The first computer program I wrote, in 1969, photo made June 10, 2022

https://www.rsok.com/~jrm/2022Jun26_birds_and_cats/2022jun10_punchcard_IMG_9502-9515.html

Re: Birds in canopy — blurry!

catsongs — Mon, 27 May 2024 02:35:04 GMT

Aloha from the North Shore,

No terns today, just parachutists dropping out of the sky and our Basenji tearing about trying to get dry after a rinse to get the salt out of his fur!

Mahalo for your thoughts.

I've been experimenting with the back buttons and I think I'm coming 'round. Just got to hone in on what I want the buttons to do.

Well, you beat me on the age thing, I guess. But at university I was punching cards in some computer class I was taking. Actually, I loathed it so much my girlfriend at the time ran cards for both of us!

But when I saw how a friend was using a mouse on a 128K Mac, well, I got the 512K FatMac and have used computers ever since!

Mahalo for your feedback!

Enjoy the weekend!

Cat

Re: EOS R5 Birds in canopy — blurry!

iCollector — Mon, 27 May 2024 13:20:43 GMT

One option you can try with the ‘joystick’ that may be of use is to chant so that you can move the focus point around with it…. Than you can work with the focus types to see what one gives you the highest success in getting what you want…. BBF was just not for me… I even tried to get it so it would turn OFF focusing…. The nice thing is these can all be played with till you find options that work for you….. there is no ‘only way’.

Re: EOS R5 Birds in canopy — blurry!

catsongs — Mon, 27 May 2024 20:26:24 GMT

Aloha e iCollector,

Mahalo!

I didn't think BBF was for me, but now that I've thought it through and practiced -- and I'm getting good results (if I remember pushing the shutter button down halfway doesn't do anything anymore!) -- I'm sticking with it.

The joystick is a great idea and... still "fighting" to get it to take priority over the AF, especially AF/eye. More experimentation called for!

While the many options Canon provides with the R5 is overwhelming at first -- and I thought my 80D was a big step up from my Rebel, years ago -- now that I've figured out what I need for shooting in the tree-canopy, fast-moving-bird situations I find myself in, I like it that I can quickly switch from settings for a brooding mother tern to a fledgling taking off, or a fish-carrying parent hovering above my head.

Getting there.

It does take a lot of thinking and a lot of work, but it's worth it!

Takk!

Cat