topic Re: Noise on EOS R8 Image in EOS DSLR & Mirrorless Cameras

Noise on EOS R8 Image

HB502 — Tue, 02 Jan 2024 18:11:17 GMT

I recently bought an R8 and have been trying my hand at photographing some sunsets. However, it seems that whatever I do, I get a lot of noise in the image. I've tried wide and small aperture (f/4.5 - f/11), auto ISO and setting ISO to 100 to force a shutter speed, tripod and not, and changing the exposure / metering settings. Example attached (this one is 24mm, f/4.5, 1/1600 shutter, ISO 200). The clouds / sky in the picture (and in all of them) has a grainy texture (noticeable on the full shot at normal zoom, and much more so when magnified).

I'm stumped on what might be causing it and how I can get this resolved. Any help would be appreciated.

Re: Noise on EOS R8 Image

rs-eos — Tue, 02 Jan 2024 18:51:27 GMT

You'll always have some amount of noise/grain in images. Even at the lowest values of ISO. I don't see any issues with these images in terms of noise.

Note that pixel-peeping will only exaggerate flaws; even if they are very minor.

Re: Noise on EOS R8 Image

Tronhard — Tue, 02 Jan 2024 21:54:21 GMT

Where precisely in the image are you most bothered by the noise?

If it is in the areas of shadow, that is perfectly normal because of the high level of contrast between the bright sky and the very, very dark shadowed cliffs. While we can perceive a vast range between extreme very bright and very dark, a camera sensor is much, much less capable of doing so.
In the image below the light changes from total white to total black in steps, each of which is a doubling or halving of the light intensity. These are called Exposure Values (EVs) or Stops and are the common currency for measuring exposure and the control of it through Aperture, Shutter and ISO controls on the camera. As you can see, we can perceive a lot more light variation than the most modern sensor.

Noise is normally a results of lack of light being captured from an area of an area of the Field of View (FoV) - i.e that view that the combination of sensor and lens captures. In the case of the image that you have posted, you have correctly exposed for the brighter areas of the FoV and it will naturally happen that the shadowed area fall to dark or black.
View this video on the subject:

If you want to get more detail from the cliff without noise, for example, I suggest checking out the Advanced User Guide, on P116, and considering the High Dynamic Range (HDR) function.
Here is a link to the guide: R8 Advanced User Guide

I hope this is of some assistance, and has not underestimated your skill level as we have no idea of that.

Re: Noise on EOS R8 Image

Waddizzle — Tue, 02 Jan 2024 19:59:47 GMT

Stop the pixel peeping, which means zooming in real close to look for noise. You will always find something that you do not like. View the images the way they would be printed or viewed.

Re: Noise on EOS R8 Image

Peter — Tue, 02 Jan 2024 21:37:11 GMT

I wouldn't sharpen the blue sky and the clouds. You will only amplify the visible noise.

Re: Noise on EOS R8 Image

HB502 — Tue, 02 Jan 2024 23:15:15 GMT

It's the lighter areas where the noise is bothering me. I can see it on normal zoom on my computer (not just the zoomed in "pixel peeping" I also posted to magnify it). The dark areas look ok to me (note that I posted the normal exposed version of a group of 3 pictures later combined to form an HDR image - which does a great job of brightening up the dark areas, but the "noise" is still present in the sky / clouds). The dark areas look fine to my amateur eye.

I've also tried to increase the light by "shooting to the right" (aperture priority mode, set ISO, bump the exposure up a stop to force a slower shutter), as I've been reading that noise occurs where there is less light hitting the sensor.

"I hope this is of some assistance, and has not underestimated your skill level as we have no idea of that."

It would be difficult to underestimate my skill level. I am novice, but trying to learn. The fundamental problem I'm trying to wrap my head around is why the "noise" (or whatever it is) is showing up in the light sky / clouds (and with any luck, what I might be able to do about it).

Re: Noise on EOS R8 Image

Tronhard — Tue, 02 Jan 2024 23:22:11 GMT

First of all, thank you for your prompt and considered response.
FWIW, the issue we have been discussing is correctly identified as NOISE, grain is a characteristic of the chemistry of film.
What I would like to do is examine the original CR3 file if possible. Can you send a link to that file please. I just need to be able to look much more deeply into the image and the settings. That would be very helpful.

Re: Noise on EOS R8 Image

Waddizzle — Fri, 05 Jan 2024 10:42:54 GMT

Very interesting video about shadows. I’ve been doing that for a few years I have been exposing to the [left], meaning i slightly under expose the image by -1/3 of a stop using exposure compensation.

Why did I start doing that? After owning a handful of Canon DSLRs I began to noice that they all seemed to slightly over expose JPGs, which would seem to yield more shadow details. I felt is was just raising the noise levels inthe shadows.

So, I experimented for a day or two with negative exposure compensation. I settled -1/3 in the camera giving me what I wanted in the RAW file. I could further tweak shadows and highlights in post.

Now I rarely have blown highlights. Most of the time I am not overly concerned with the shadows.

Re: Noise on EOS R8 Image

Tronhard — Wed, 03 Jan 2024 00:18:10 GMT

Thanks Bill! BTW, Happy New Year!
Certainly, I think a lot of people (not specific to this thread) seek to bring out shadows to the level of blowing highlights, or really destroying the dynamic range of their image by over-compensating the exposure on things like shadows in PP. I like the Sean explains why this is an challenge to do with our physiology and the limitations of camera sensors, so trying to stretch that dynamic range will cause issues.

Re: Noise on EOS R8 Image

HB502 — Wed, 03 Jan 2024 00:26:26 GMT

Thank you for your assistance. I have uploaded the raw file for this picture to:

https://adobe.ly/3NN0CrF

This is my first time trying to share a raw file, so I apologize in advance if you can't access this (it says its shared) or Adobe converts it to something other than the cr3. If that happens let me know and I'll try to figure out another way to share it.

If it also means anything, someone also said to view the image the way it would be printed or viewed. My primary "customer" for my images is viewing them on my computer as desktop / screensaver images. My monitor is a Dell 23220DGF (32" 2k monitor) if that makes any difference. Viewing the full image at 100% zoom shows the visible noise (in the clouds / sky) that I am trying to figure out.

I also "shared" a second photo at https://adobe.ly/3RGFBzX that shows similar could noise that was shot at 1 stop over exposure.

Re: Noise on EOS R8 Image

Tronhard — Wed, 03 Jan 2024 00:31:47 GMT

Thank you, will check it out!
Just did, alas Adobe cripples the image for transmission. You would need to share it via a file-sharing app like MS OneDrive (you need a MS email account) or Google share program, info on that via this link:
Share photos & videos - Computer - Google Photos Help
Definitely need the full CR3 file, but useful to know you are using Lightroom as your photo editor

Re: Noise on EOS R8 Image

HB502 — Wed, 03 Jan 2024 01:53:27 GMT

Ok... let me try this:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/BHFVDmbLtpGDzkwR6

https://photos.app.goo.gl/vkXfAAk8nZNc6nmj7

I also uploaded to google drive:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/13o7ULuMlqrq-f_qDOudzL03UTW2jBiN7/view?usp=drive_link

Re: Noise on EOS R8 Image

Tronhard — Wed, 03 Jan 2024 01:58:56 GMT

Hi Jeff:
Well, some success - I have a somewhat better view but the file has been drastically reduced in size to just 173kB and the metadata is gone - the file now seems to be reduced to a small JPG file. When you post, is there an option to have no compression?

Re: Noise on EOS R8 Image

HB502 — Wed, 03 Jan 2024 17:23:03 GMT

there was, and I thought for sure I checked the box that said something to the effect of "full size" as opposed to the space saver option.

Are you able to check the google drive link? For that I uploaded a zip that says it contains the files which are 8 and 12 MB.

Re: Noise on EOS R8 Image

Tronhard — Wed, 03 Jan 2024 18:56:01 GMT

I clicked on the link but need your permission to access the file according to the program, so I requested it.

Re: Noise on EOS R8 Image

HB502 — Wed, 03 Jan 2024 21:57:25 GMT

ok... should have access now.

Re: Noise on EOS R8 Image

Peter — Wed, 03 Jan 2024 22:53:14 GMT

It is dark, but even if I brighten the sky I don't get the same noise as you got. I still think your noise issue is due to your sharpening in Lightroom. I also think Adobe still uses AHD as demosaicing method (Adaptive Homogeneity-Directed). Good for areas of high contrast. Not so good for low contrast.

What it looks like for me in darktable without any sharpening, lens profile or NR.

A demosaicing method dedicated for high contrast, like AHD/RCD/AMaZE, will also let you see the artifacts from CRAW easier.

AHD:

VNG4 that is good for maze pattern or low contrast:

Re: Noise on EOS R8 Image

Tronhard — Wed, 03 Jan 2024 22:30:49 GMT

Currently out shooting. Will check when I get home!

Re: Noise on EOS R8 Image

Tronhard — Thu, 04 Jan 2024 17:44:02 GMT

Thanks for sorting out the access for me. I have downloaded the three files and expanded them. I am now looking at them in PS.

In looking at 4811.cr3 my reaction is that there is some noise, particularly in the clouds, but TBH, I would expect that, given that the exposure is reduced to accommodate the bright light of the exposed sun. As I alluded to before, the dynamic range of the sensor is nowhere near our perception. Noise comes from under-exposure and very high ISO values - the latter of which you obviously don't have. I think that in getting the sunlit area right, the clouds (in some areas where they were darkest), have noise. There is also some drop-off of sharpness and in this case
I think it might have been interesting to use some different settings: Your EXIF data shows the following for the file 4811.CR3 1/1600sec, f/4.5, ISO-200.
I would tend to go for a slower shutter speed and still catch the waves, in fact a much slower shutter speed might have had some nice movement effects, providing an element of dynamism, but that's an artistic debate! Still, dropping to even 1/800sec, would allow a f/stop of 5.6 which would increase the depth of field.

The great landscape photographer, Ansel Adams once said that the negative (in this case the RAW image) was like the score of an orchestral piece, and just as the conductor interprets it to give it life and expression, so does post production with a photo.
So, one might say that the RAW image is simply that: RAW. The rest is meant to be achieved in the digital darkroom. Some may debate that, and that's the nature of any art. I took the image and played with it in PS, see what you think of this resulting JPG...

Re: Noise on EOS R8 Image

HB502 — Fri, 05 Jan 2024 05:02:29 GMT

Thanks for this. After this I tried opening them in DPP and subjectively it looked a litter better (exported jpgs were objectively better as well, but that could have been the export settings). I'm going to have to read this a few more times though before I can digest it all.