topic Re: R7 Focus Stacking forces electronic shutter in EOS DSLR & Mirrorless Cameras

R7 Focus Stacking forces electronic shutter

rpoole — Fri, 02 Dec 2022 16:24:55 GMT

The R7, and other R series cameras, forces electronic shutter for focus stacking. This prevents the use of flash for focus stacking. There is no really good reason for not allowing mechanical shutter for focus stacking and the choice of which shutter should be left up to the photographer, not the camera. Does anyone know of any workarounds that can allow the use of flash with the built-in focus stacking?

Re: R7 Focus Stacking forces electronic shutter

Waddizzle — Sat, 03 Dec 2022 21:28:06 GMT

The best work around is to buy some video lighting gear and not use a flash..

I do not see why not using a flash is a major inconvenience. Set the camera to Av mode, ISO to 100, and everything should take care of itself using whatever ambient lighting you have.

Otherwise, you will have to create the focus stacks the old fashioned way, if you want to use a flash. You will have to build the stacks manually. If that is the limitation of the camera feature, then it is what it is.

Re: R7 Focus Stacking forces electronic shutter

Hazel_T — Sat, 03 Dec 2022 22:12:26 GMT

Hi rpoole,

The focus stacking function in the EOS R7 cannot be used with a flash. As Waddizzle mentioned we would recommend using something like video lights since they output consistent light through the entire shoot.

We appreciate feedback on changes customers would like us to make to our products. We have a team that documents and handles customer feedback. I have already alerted them to this post, but if you want to contact them directly in the future they can be reached by going to our website HERE and selecting Feedback in the top left corner of the site. We do take customer suggestions and feedback into consideration when we are updating our products and processes.

Re: R7 Focus Stacking forces electronic shutter

rpoole — Sun, 04 Dec 2022 03:49:08 GMT

Considering I have multiple high quality flashes, and diffusers, and reflectors that have worked just fine with all DSLRs the switch to the R7 that forces electronic shutter thus no flash usage seems like a downgrade, not an upgrade for focus stacking. Why should I be forced to purchase one or more video lights just to retain the capability I have with my current DSLRs? There just is no reasonable justification to force only electronic shutter for focus stacking. It should be the photographer's choice of which shutter mode to use, not the camera's. So now I have to carry more gear and more weight instead of less gear and less weight when I travel (video lights and flashes with R7 or flashes and both R7 and 7D2). Seems to defeat part of the purpose of upgrading to the R7.

Re: R7 Focus Stacking forces electronic shutter

Waddizzle — Sun, 04 Dec 2022 12:31:49 GMT

@rpoolewrote:
Considering I have multiple high quality flashes, and diffusers, and reflectors that have worked just fine with all DSLRs the switch to the R7 that forces electronic shutter thus no flash usage seems like a downgrade, not an upgrade for focus stacking.
So now I have to carry more gear aof the purpose of upgrading to the R7.

Are your DSLRs able to perform focus stacking with or without a flash?

Why is it necessary to use a flash for focus stacking? As I pointed out above, artificial lighting isn’t required, at all.

Re: R7 Focus Stacking forces electronic shutter

rpoole — Sat, 10 Dec 2022 13:28:10 GMT

I guess you've never done focus stacking in Texas where it can be quite windy during they day. Doing focus stacks in nature is much easier in the late evenings and night when it is usually much calmer. Wind deflectors usually aren't enough during strong day time winds so you either have to wait for rare calm days or just wait until night time when it is usually calmer. I've never had enough natural light to do focus stacks at night thus the required use of artificial light. I've been using Helicon on my tablet to do focus stacks with my DSLRs and it works quite well but it is more gear you have to carry. Being able to do it in camera is quite handy and seems to work quite well. However, it would be nice to have the option of using mechanical shutter when you need to use flash.

Re: R7 Focus Stacking forces electronic shutter

Waddizzle — Sat, 10 Dec 2022 22:02:26 GMT

“Are your DSLRs able to perform focus stacking with or without a flash?”

I’ll take your non-answer to mean no. Your DSLRs are not able to perform in-camera focus stacking.

Furthermore, your response does not address why the objection to automatic focus stacking being [performed] by the electronic shutter. I will take that to mean no, also. It is not necessary to use a mechanical shutter to capture static scenes.

Happy Photography, to you.

Re: R7 Focus Stacking forces electronic shutter

pwiles1968 — Tue, 09 May 2023 21:10:13 GMT

Honestly not being able to use flash with focus bracketing is a massive oversight, when doing real Macro photography 1:1 or greater you almost always struggle with light you are so close to the subject you can be causing shadows with your gear, it would be such a simple change to allow this and believe me the macro community would appreciate it.

Re: R7 Focus Stacking forces electronic shutter

hellochando — Fri, 23 Jun 2023 03:04:33 GMT

Can focus bracketing with flash be added with a firmware update? This is a big disappointment.

Re: R7 Focus Stacking forces electronic shutter

Waddizzle — Fri, 23 Jun 2023 08:47:06 GMT

@hellochando wrote:
Can focus bracketing with flash be added with a firmware update? This is a big disappointment.

Big disappointment? Are you sure?

BTW, the use of the electronic shutter has nothing to do with this “issue”. Going with the electronic shutter, instead of mechanical, means less vibration and sharper images.

Let’s think about how using a flash to perform focus stacking would work, or more accurately would NOT work. Focus stacking works by capturing a series of images in quick succession as the focus plane is varied according to your settings. It is not uncommon for a dozen or more images to be capture, if not dozens.

Several images are captured per seconds. Can a flash or strobe system recharge that quickly? I seriously doubt that any system can recharge that quickly. Can yours?

Re: R7 Focus Stacking forces electronic shutter

hellochando — Fri, 23 Jun 2023 14:23:00 GMT

I'm using speedlights at 1/16 power for macro food photos so recycle time isn't an problem. Most of the camera movement is from manually turning the focus ring. Camera shake from the mechanical shutter isn't even an issue on a tripod at high sync speeds. Using continuous lighting isn't a great option for shooting macro at high apertures - too bulky for tight setups and not ideal for things like chocolate. I invested in two R5Cs, and that price point, it's a monumental disappointment.

Re: R7 Focus Stacking forces electronic shutter

pwiles1968 — Fri, 23 Jun 2023 15:01:30 GMT

Yes a Flash system can refresh that fast especially with external power packs and Video lights are not strong or diffused enough I have been doing this for years the old method is to put camera on burst and manually move the camera this is a bit hit and miss but the burst rate is no different, being able to have the camera stack (with Flash) would be a great advantage and other manufacturers do it, Look at someone like this https://instagram.com/macro_by_rory?igshid=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ== who is a ver accomplished macro photographer he stacks images by manually moving through the subject while on burst

Re: R7 Focus Stacking forces electronic shutter

wq9nsc — Fri, 23 Jun 2023 15:11:31 GMT

I believe the R3 is the only mirrorless that has focus stacking with flash, insufficient sensor readout speed is the reason flash can't be used with the lesser R series models.

And as you correctly pointed out, flash recycle time isn't an issue at reduced power which is where it normally will be set for macro photography. Canon's MR-14 EX II macro ring light flash has a minimum recycle time of .1 second at minimum power increasing to around 5 seconds at high power. My Hensel studio strobes have the same .1 second minimum recycle time (9 flashes per second) at low power decreasing to 2 flashes per second at their maximum 500 watt output.

It is common with some camera producers to provide adjustable delay between stacking steps to allow for flash recycling.

Rodger

Re: R7 Focus Stacking forces electronic shutter

pwiles1968 — Fri, 23 Jun 2023 15:14:48 GMT

No when you do real macro 1:1 or greater ambient light is insufficient you have to use dedicated lenses or adapters you are so close you often are blocking light from the subject

Re: R7 Focus Stacking forces electronic shutter

Waddizzle — Fri, 23 Jun 2023 16:56:13 GMT

I don’t think a recharge time of 0.1 sec is fast enough for a body capable of 20-40 fps.

Re: R7 Focus Stacking forces electronic shutter

hellochando — Fri, 23 Jun 2023 22:59:04 GMT

Fujifilm XT4 focus bracketing with flash: https://youtu.be/4LBHZ5GiEkQ

Re: R7 Focus Stacking forces electronic shutter

deebatman316 — Sat, 24 Jun 2023 00:45:01 GMT

Fuji, Panasonic, Olympus (now OM Systems), Sony, Nikon (certain cameras) do. But the readout speed IS NOT fast enough. Therefor flash photography IS incompatible with the electronic shutter. Only the EOS R3 offers this feature because of the faster readout speed. This IS a hardware limitation not something that can fixed using firmware.

Re: R7 Focus Stacking forces electronic shutter

Waddizzle — Sat, 24 Jun 2023 01:18:11 GMT

I do not understand what sensor readout speed has to do with it.

Unlike the Fuji in the video, the Canon setup does not allow for control of the interval between shots. The camera will capture the images at the fastest possible frame rate. Changing the Drive Mode has no effect. Focus Bracketing seems to always use High Speed Continuous Drive Mode.

Unless, the R3 allows you to control the interval between shots in the Focus Bracketing menu, then I do not see how it could allow for flash, either.

Re: R7 Focus Stacking forces electronic shutter

deebatman316 — Sat, 24 Jun 2023 01:31:08 GMT

The R3 allows because of the Back Side Illuminated Sensor (BSI) I believe. This was the most common reason stated in multiple forums.

Re: R7 Focus Stacking forces electronic shutter

Waddizzle — Sat, 24 Jun 2023 01:54:14 GMT

@deebatman316 wrote:
The R3 allows because of the Back Side Illuminated Sensor (BSI) I believe. This was the most common reason stated in multiple forums.

Again, what does sensor readout speed have to do with it? In fact, I don’t think shutter mode has anything to do with the issue, either.

The way I see it, the problem is that the frame rate in focus bracketing mode is WAY too fast to use a flash. You are not able to control or vary the interval time between shots.

In the posted video, a sequence of 40 sample shots is used. I think she set the interval to 1 second between shots. The entire sequence was initiated and completed in about a minute. If I setup my R6M2 for 40 shots, it will be completed in less than 2 seconds. BZZT…Done!

Focus Bracketing always runs at the fastest possible frame rate on my R6M2. I cannot set an interval between frames. I would suspect the other models exhibit the same behavior. You cannot control the interval between shots.