topic Re: Zoom Lens Above the usual in EF & RF Lenses

Zoom Lens Above the usual

Skippy2525 — Sat, 01 Sep 2018 16:03:20 GMT

I'm a casual/weekend photographer and have a Canon T3 Rebel camera. I currently own the following lenses:

1) Canon EF 80-200 1:4.5-5.6 II

2) Canon EF 75-300 1:4-5.6 III

3) Canon EFS 18-55 1:3.5-5.6 IS II

4) Canon EF 35-80 1:4-5.6 III

I enjoy taking landscape and nature photos, however I've found that even my EF 75-300 lens can't get me close enough to some of the birds and animals I've tried to photograph. At one point, I used a 2x teleconverter, but my photos didn't seem very crisp.

So, I'm looking to purchase a longer lens and am willing to pay a little more for a quality lens that will get me in closer.

Should I go with a fixed focal length lens? Or, a variable with a longer focal point?

Any suggestions as to which lens/lenses I shoud consider?

Thanks for any help you can give me!

Re: Zoom Lens Above the usual

Tronhard — Sat, 01 Sep 2018 18:43:27 GMT

@Skippy2525 wrote:
I'm a casual/weekend photographer and have a Canon T3 Rebel camera. I currently own the following lenses:

1) Canon EF 80-200 1:4.5-5.6 II
2) Canon EF 75-300 1:4-5.6 III
3) Canon EFS 18-55 1:3.5-5.6 IS II
4) Canon EF 35-80 1:4-5.6 III

I enjoy taking landscape and nature photos, however I've found that even my EF 75-300 lens can't get me close enough to some of the birds and animals I've tried to photograph. At one point, I used a 2x teleconverter, but my photos didn't seem very crisp.

So, I'm looking to purchase a longer lens and am willing to pay a little more for a quality lens that will get me in closer.

Should I go with a fixed focal length lens? Or, a variable with a longer focal point?

Any suggestions as to which lens/lenses I shoud consider?

Thanks for any help you can give me!

First off I would sell the 75-300 - that, to me, is the weakest link in your lens selection. I would also consider getting rid of the 80-200 that you have and getting some L series lenses. You have not indicated an actual budget so that is a significant variable.

There are a couple of ways you could do this if your interest in in wildlife photography. Others will have their own opinions based on THEIR preferences for zooms vs fixed focal length lenses.

I would consider:

(a) If you want to continue with zoom lenses for the range. Canon EF 80-200 ISUSM L f2.8 Mk II: it is an excellent lens but has been superceded by the Mk III, so there are quite a few available second hand or refurbished. Then also get a 2x teleconverter (I have the MkIII version) - that will give you a Equivalent performance of 128 - 640mm f4-f8. I have used this exact setup of lenses on a crop sensor body and found them to be very sharp.

If you are not sure what I mean by Equivalence please read: https://www.dpreview.com/articles/2666934640/what-is-equivalence-and-why-should-i-care. To get the Equivalent performance values I got those numbers by mulitiplying the physical FL's and apertures by the crop factor and then for the longest range by the crop factor and the teleconverter value (i.e. 80mm x1.6) and (200mm x1.6 x2). NOTE the lens does not physically change from its original and advertised specs, but what it sees does.

(b) If you keep your current 80-200 you might want to consider something in the range of a 400mm f4 FFL lens. They are light and sharp and highly regarded. Such a lens would give you an Equivalent performance of 640mm f5.6.

Re: Zoom Lens Above the usual

kvbarkley — Sat, 01 Sep 2018 19:45:47 GMT

Most folks here have one of the sigma/tamron 150-600's. These work really well. (I have the Tamron).

As said, the 75-300 is not a good lens.

Re: Zoom Lens Above the usual

Tronhard — Sat, 01 Sep 2018 22:09:20 GMT

As always a lens is a compromise between price (really what are you prepared to invest?? If you don't offer a budget you are going to get a lot of expensive and possibly irrelevent suggestions), focal range and aperture size - in that category comes whether you want purely super tele (e.g. like the Sigma 150-600 ) or if you want to go from a more modest tele up to a long tele (e.g. the 80-200 with extender). Also, as mentioned are you prepared to stick with a single focal length or do you want a zoom?

Then... what kinds of output do you intend to produce? e.g. the range from smaller prints and digital media to large, high resolution prints requires a huge difference in investment.

Finally, and not insignificantly, what are you prepared to carry?

Re: Zoom Lens Above the usual

Skippy2525 — Sun, 02 Sep 2018 01:46:28 GMT

Thanks for all the replies!

To answer a few of the questions you posed.....

I inherited all but one of the lenses from my father who was a weekend-type photographer, but who liked to try different things. I understand that some of them are not very high quality but I'm not ready to part with them yet for sentimental reasons.

As for my budget...so far, I've saved up about $800. I know this isn't really a lot, but I'm hoping that it will get me a better zoom lens. (Or, not????)

And, I'm not sure if I want a variable zoom or a fixed focal length. That's why I posted my question. Since I'm not an expert in this area and just want the pictures for myself, I'm not sure which type of lens would be better.

As for the photos that I'll be taking, they will be just for me. I don't intend on making large prints (8 x 10 would probably be the largest, just so I could frame it and hang it on the wall.) And, I'm not planning to sell the pictures.

As for what I am prepared to carry, at this point, I'm not ranging too far from home. I have a very nice tripod (not one of those lightweight things that Walmart sells) and a good (well-made/not cheap) camera bag that could accomodate a longer lens as well as my camera body, plus a 2nd lens.

I'm probably forgetting something, but I hope that this additional information will help fill in the gaps that my original question lacked.

Re: Zoom Lens Above the usual

Tronhard — Sun, 02 Sep 2018 03:11:12 GMT

Thanks for your informative update!

Considering your intended use and the fact you are not producing large images I think it would be a safer investment to stick with a zoom for the time being - it will give you much more flexibility of use.

If you were ok with a better quality 300mm maximum then I would suggest going with the Canon EF 70-300 F4.0-5.6 IS II USM. It will work on your crop sensor body and if you ever go for a full-frame camera it will work on that too.

However, in your price range, to get you to 400mm (on your crop sensor body that's has a field of view Equivalent to 640mm), then I would suggest the Tamron 100-400mm f4.5-6.3 - giving an Equivalent FoV of 160-640mm. In reasonable daylight conditions it seems to perform well and has excellent stabilization to help with hand-held shooting. It too can be used on a full-frame body.

See this review from DPREVIEW https://www.dpreview.com/articles/0258277925/tamron-100-400mm-f4-5-6-3-di-vc-usd. You may want to invest in the tripod mount collar that is sold separately if you want to use it on your tripod.

Should you need even more reach you can get Tamron's 1.4 and 2.0 x teleconverters, on the 1.4 extending the range to 224-896mm - remember that you pay a price in aperture on a teleconvert, so like the crop value of 1.6 you would also multiply the advertised apertures by 1.4 for the teleconverter.

Re: Zoom Lens Above the usual

amfoto1 — Sun, 02 Sep 2018 17:26:18 GMT

Hi,

FYI: A "zoom" can be a wide angle, standard or telephoto. In fact some "zooms" try to do all three. You appear to be looking for a more powerful telephoto, and it sounds as if you'll consider one that's either be a zoom lens or a prime lens (non-zoom).

A previous response suggest upgrading your 75-300mm III, perhaps to the EF 70-300mm IS USM or the "II" version of that lens. This would be a good thing.... those are much better lenses... except that this doesn't really address your main concern. Another lens that maxes out at 300mm won't give you any more "reach".

The problem is that lenses over 300mm start to get rather expensive. They also can be pretty large & heavy, more challenging to work with and might require a tripod or at least a monopod. Some possibilities...

- Canon EF 400mm f/5.6L USM... This is a very sharp and fast focusing lens. Well built and reasonably well sealed for weather resistance, too. The one thing it lacks is Image Stabilization. As a result, you will need to keep shutter speeds fast (1/500 or faster) when handholding it or use it on a tripod (comes with a tripod mounting ring). Also, because it's an f/5.6 lens, with any teleconverter it will not be able to autofocus on your camera. It's about $1200 new, but has been around for a while, to might find it used for some savings.

- Canon EF 300mm f/4L IS USM with 1.4X teleconverter.... Another high quality prime that's fast focusing and makes great images, though I wouldn't call it quite as sharp as the 400mm. However, it has Image Stabilization, works very well with a 1.4X teleconverter and would be able to autofocus on your camera. This has been one of my most used lenses over the years.... It's easily handheld for long periods of time, though I've also use it on a monopod at times. I've used it a lot with Canon EF 1..4X II teleconverter. This combo adds some versatility, since the lens alone can be used as a 300mm or it becomes an effective 420mm f/5.6 once the teleconverter is added. The lens alone sells new for about $1350 and the current Canon 1.4X III Extender costs $429. Again, this lens and the earlier version of the teleconverter might be found used for somewhat less. I think the 300mm f/4L IS USM has been in production continuously for upwards of 20 years, so there are a lot of them around.

- Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS USM "II".... If you need the versatility of a zoom, this is a superb lens. It's very sharp and fast focusing, extremely well made and very close focusing too. It is a bit large, heavy and rather pricey at around $2000. The first version is also a darned good lens, and might be found used or refurbished for less money. One difference, the first version uses a "push/pull" zoom design that's rather unusual today. Some folks really like that for it's speed. Personally I've never been a fan of push/pull zooms, but that's just me. Since they're already f/5.6, both theses zooms also would not be able to autofocus on your camera with a teleconverter. One of the reasons these Canon zooms are higher priced than the above and some third party options is that both the Canon 100-400mm use a fluorite element. In telephotos, fluorite makes for a very sharp image by minmizing chromatic aberrations. Canon uses fluorite a lot in their telephoto zooms and primes... but it adds cost and most other manufacturers don't use it at all, try to make up for the lack of it with other types of elements with mixed success

From the above, the prices of Canon telephoto zooms and primes go up.... way up! Other non-Canon options are available, but I'm reluctant to say much about them here on Canon's own forum! There will be some compromise with all the third party lenses anyway... Not quite as good image quality, lower build quality, not as high performance autofocus and possibly more. Be sure to compare carefully, but there are some third party 100-400mm and 150-600mm that may be more within your budget.

Several times I mentioned teleconverters above. Your camera is limited in the combos it can autofocus. It can AF a 1.4X teleconverter on an f/4 lens, but not on an f/5.6 lens. It can AF a 2X teleconverter on an f/2.8 lens, but not on an f/4 or f/5.6. The "slower" combos that can't autofocus also will dim down your viewfinder, making manual focusing difficult. It sounds as if you've already experimented a bit with using a 2X and probably have seen these problems.

In fact, teleconverters "cost" some image quality. A weaker 1.4X teleconverter has a lot less effect on IQ than a stronger 2X does. And teleconverters usually work better on prime lenses than on zooms, but in either case lenses that have extremely high image quality to begin with (such as the three listed above) are a lot more tolerant of adding teleconverter.... and especially a quality 1.4X will minimize the loss of IQ.

Something else to think about.... If there is a new camera somewhere in your future, some of them are able to autofocus additional lens/teleconverter combos. For example, the T7i, 77D, 80D and 7D Mark II all can AF a Canon 400mm f/5.6L or a Canon 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L with a 1.4X added. Those cameras will only be able to do so with limited AF points, and the focus may slow or tend to hunt a bit in lower light conditions. But at least they're able to autofocus.

For more detailed info about any of the above or other lenses, and to be able to compare magnified test shots done with them side by side to see for yourself what they can do, I recommend Bryan Carnathan's The-Digital-Picture website. He reviews and carefully tests a lot of Canon gear, as well as many popular items in other brands. You also can compare the image quality of lenses you've currently got, such as the EF 75-300mm III (Canon's cheapest telephoto zoom) versus something else you're considering as a possible replacement.

You could probably sell off two or three of your current lenses to help with the purchase one of the above. I don't know how much you would get selling them (check "sold" listings on everyones' favorite auction website), but every little bit helps!

Finally, to help your $ go a little farther, you might consider buying refurbished, which Canon sells directly. These are little different from new and, in fact, Canon warrants them same as new. https://shop.usa.canon.com/shop/en/catalog/lenses-flashes/refurbished-lenses#facet:-8109841011081011121041111161113290111111109,-810984101108101112104111116111,-810984101108101112104111116111323832831171121011143284101108101112104111116111&productBeginIndex:0&orderBy:11&pageView:grid&pageSize:36&

This is probably better than used.... Though most of the better retailers selling used gear offer a 60 to 90 day warranty. Used items from private parties or bought via online auctions are typically unwarranted and the riskiest.

***********

Alan Myers
San Jose, Calif., USA
"Walk softly and carry a big lens."
GEAR: 5DII, 7DII (x2), 7D(x2) some other cameras, various lenses & accessories
FLICKR & ZENFOLIO

Re: Zoom Lens Above the usual

ebiggs1 — Sun, 02 Sep 2018 16:08:35 GMT

1) Canon EF 80-200 1:4.5-5.6 II...................................sell

2) Canon EF 75-300 1:4-5.6 III.....................................sell

3) Canon EFS 18-55 1:3.5-5.6 IS II...............................keep for now

4) Canon EF 35-80 1:4-5.6 III........................................sell

You have $800 go buy the Tamron SP 150-600mm f/5-6.3 Di VC USD G2 for Canon EF. You won't get much for your old lenses but it will help a little bit. Until Canon finally sees the need for a lens like the big Tammy, it is the one to buy. All the other suggestions above will work, it is just that the big Tammy will work as well and do it much easier.

When you recover form buying the Tamron sell the EFS 18-55 1:3.5-5.6 IS II to help fund the Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM Lens. These two are all you are likely to need for a log, long time.

Re: Zoom Lens Above the usual

Tronhard — Sun, 02 Sep 2018 19:34:49 GMT

@ebiggs1 wrote:
1) Canon EF 80-200 1:4.5-5.6 II...................................sell
2) Canon EF 75-300 1:4-5.6 III.....................................sell
3) Canon EFS 18-55 1:3.5-5.6 IS II...............................keep for now
4) Canon EF 35-80 1:4-5.6 III........................................sell

You have $800 go buy the Tamron SP 150-600mm f/5-6.3 Di VC USD G2 for Canon EF. You won't get much for your old lenses but it will help a little bit. Until Canon finally sees the need for a lens like the big Tammy, it is the one to buy. All the other suggestions above will work, it is just that the big Tammy will work as well and do it much easier.

When you recover form buying the Tamron sell the EFS 18-55 1:3.5-5.6 IS II to help fund the Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM Lens. These two are all you are likely to need for a log, long time.

I'm not sure if you saw this but the OP said: "I inherited all but one of the lenses from my father who was a weekend-type photographer, but who liked to try different things. I understand that some of them are not very high quality but I'm not ready to part with them yet for sentimental reasons."

I think it is best to respect this personal preference and accept they will not be sold.

Re: Zoom Lens Above the usual

RobertTheFat — Sun, 02 Sep 2018 20:01:34 GMT

@Tronhard wrote:
@ebiggs1 wrote:
1) Canon EF 80-200 1:4.5-5.6 II...................................sell
2) Canon EF 75-300 1:4-5.6 III.....................................sell
3) Canon EFS 18-55 1:3.5-5.6 IS II...............................keep for now
4) Canon EF 35-80 1:4-5.6 III........................................sell

You have $800 go buy the Tamron SP 150-600mm f/5-6.3 Di VC USD G2 for Canon EF. You won't get much for your old lenses but it will help a little bit. Until Canon finally sees the need for a lens like the big Tammy, it is the one to buy. All the other suggestions above will work, it is just that the big Tammy will work as well and do it much easier.

When you recover form buying the Tamron sell the EFS 18-55 1:3.5-5.6 IS II to help fund the Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM Lens. These two are all you are likely to need for a log, long time.
I'm not sure if you saw this but the OP said: "I inherited all but one of the lenses from my father who was a weekend-type photographer, but who liked to try different things. I understand that some of them are not very high quality but I'm not ready to part with them yet for sentimental reasons."

I think it is best to respect this personal preference and accept they will not be sold.

If I had been the OP's father, and had been asked, I would have urged him/her not to be sentimental about the lenses. The thing to be sentimental about is the pictures that he took, not the tools he used to produce them.

Now if the old man had been a violinist instead of a photographer, and the discussion centered around his Stradivarius violin, my opinion might be different. But I don't think any of those lenses raise a comparable issue.

Re: Zoom Lens Above the usual

ebiggs1 — Sun, 02 Sep 2018 20:26:53 GMT

"But I don't think any of those lenses raise a comparable issue."

I agree but who knows? The comparison of the Strad to these lenses is somewhat missing, though. They never made a better violin than the old Strads but they do make light years better lenses than the ones the OP has.

" I'm not ready to part with them yet for sentimental reasons." If this is true the OP needs to save a bit longer. And these lenses need to be put in a special place and kept as they are.

Re: Zoom Lens Above the usual

ebiggs1 — Sun, 02 Sep 2018 20:32:49 GMT

A little story as why I said what I did. My dad bought two Nikon F cameras while he was in Japan. He left one on the top of his Toyota and drove off with it there. No need to go further with that story! The other he left to me. I used it for whatever reason, it made me feel close or something, who knows? Anyway it got stolen a while ago, matter of fact quite a while ago. I still wish I had not used that camera.

Re: Zoom Lens Above the usual

Tronhard — Sun, 02 Sep 2018 21:30:53 GMT

@RobertTheFat wrote:
@Tronhard wrote:
@ebiggs1 wrote:
1) Canon EF 80-200 1:4.5-5.6 II...................................sell
2) Canon EF 75-300 1:4-5.6 III.....................................sell
3) Canon EFS 18-55 1:3.5-5.6 IS II...............................keep for now
4) Canon EF 35-80 1:4-5.6 III........................................sell

You have $800 go buy the Tamron SP 150-600mm f/5-6.3 Di VC USD G2 for Canon EF. You won't get much for your old lenses but it will help a little bit. Until Canon finally sees the need for a lens like the big Tammy, it is the one to buy. All the other suggestions above will work, it is just that the big Tammy will work as well and do it much easier.

When you recover form buying the Tamron sell the EFS 18-55 1:3.5-5.6 IS II to help fund the Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM Lens. These two are all you are likely to need for a log, long time.
I'm not sure if you saw this but the OP said: "I inherited all but one of the lenses from my father who was a weekend-type photographer, but who liked to try different things. I understand that some of them are not very high quality but I'm not ready to part with them yet for sentimental reasons."

I think it is best to respect this personal preference and accept they will not be sold.
If I had been the OP's father, and had been asked, I would have urged him/her not to be sentimental about the lenses. The thing to be sentimental about is the pictures that he took, not the tools he used to produce them.

Now if the old man had been a violinist instead of a photographer, and the discussion centered around his Stradivarius violin, my opinion might be different. But I don't think any of those lenses raise a comparable issue.

I hate to point out the obvious but you weren't the OP's father and you weren't asked. We don't have any idea of the relationship between these people or the sentimental significance of what is economically low value gear. If he is not ready to sell, perhaps just respect and accept that.

On a purely technical basis I agree with much of what you suggest, and I think the Sigma is a great option if the OP needs that much reach. I think he has recieved a fairly good range of options for how to proceed, I hope he will let us know what his decision is.

Re: Zoom Lens Above the usual

Skippy2525 — Mon, 03 Sep 2018 15:20:41 GMT

PLEASE DO NOT refer to my father as "THE OLD MAN"!

I find that very offensive!

The fact that I am not willing to part with my father's lenses is of no consequence to you!

I asked a simple question about buying another lens.

Please keep all comments within that topic.

Thank you.

Re: Zoom Lens Above the usual

Tronhard — Mon, 03 Sep 2018 18:03:54 GMT

@Skippy2525 wrote:
PLEASE DO NOT refer to my father as "THE OLD MAN"!

I find that very offensive!

The fact that I am not willing to part with my father's lenses is of no consequence to you!

I asked a simple question about buying another lens.

Please keep all comments within that topic.

Thank you.

I am sorry that this happened - the forum is usually a very positive and supportive environment, you asked a specific question which I hope we will provide some guidance in resolving. You have my condolences on the loss of your father and I know how important tokens can be of those things that part of him and you may have shared together - they transcent the material values others may put upon them.

We are happy to support your questions to our best ability and I hope you will let us know what you decide.

Re: Zoom Lens Above the usual

amfoto1 — Mon, 03 Sep 2018 18:42:00 GMT

@Skippy2525... I am not willing to part with my father's lenses...

Hey, I understand competely....

My Dad's old cameras, lenses and accessories that he gave me about ten years ago. Not for sale now or ever!

I got a kick out of the fact that he kept the receipt for one of them.... from 1959! I think the warranty has expired! But it's neat to see a hand written reciept for a Leica IIIG with 50mm f/1.5 Summarit lens for $160 U.S.!

I remember being a bored and probably pretty whiny little kid waiting for him to take a shot with these! But we had a blast a few years ago viewing the slides he took with them all those years ago.

***********

Alan Myers
San Jose, Calif., USA
"Walk softly and carry a big lens."
GEAR: 5DII, 7DII (x2), 7D(x2) some other cameras, various lenses & accessories
FLICKR & ZENFOLIO

Re: Zoom Lens Above the usual

Waddizzle — Mon, 03 Sep 2018 19:03:44 GMT

"Should I go with a fixed focal length lens? Or, a variable with a longer focal point? "

If you are not experienced with a super telephoto, then I strongly suggest going with a super telephoto zoom.

Using a super tele is a bit like looking at the world through a straw. I would only use super telephoto prime on a monopod or tripod, so I could look away from the viewfinder, and get my bearings without changing my aim significantly. This takes practice to learn how to do handheld. With a zoom, you can zoom out, get your bearings, and zoom .

The Sigma 150-600mm Contemporary, or the Tamron 150-600mm G2. Both of these lenses allow you to make firmware updates with an accessory. Tamron makes two versions of the 150-600mm. The G2 version is the newer one, Generation 2.

Be forewarned. Either 150-600mm lens is big and heavy. They are real beasts, and monopod or tripod support is highly recommended for extended shooting sessions.

I think the Sigma "C" is a better than lens choice than the first generation of the Tamron 150-600mm lens, which does not allow for firmware updates by the end user. The Sigma "C" has also had a complete software rewrite of the AF system in its' firmware, which really transformed the lens into a completely different lens. It focuses 40% faster, and is no longer gets soft as approach the 600mm range of the zoom.

Both Sigma and Tamron also make 100-400mm lenses, which are much smaller than their 150-600mm beasts. While they do not add much in the way of focal length over your current 75-300mm, they are much sharper. I do not recommend using an extender with either one of them, but they would work well on an APS-C sensor body camera, though.

Re: Zoom Lens Above the usual

ebiggs1 — Mon, 03 Sep 2018 19:25:31 GMT

This reaffirms my suggestion to save bit longer and...........

"And these lenses need to be put in a special place and kept as they are."

I know, now, I wish I had done so.

You have $800, you are very close to get the current best of the group Tamron SP 150-600mm f/5-6.3 Di VC USD G2. If you are looking used you can probably find one for $800 or at least real close to that. They are durable lenses and usually don't see a great amount of use by most folks. A good choice on a used lens. While the Tamron SP 150-600mm f/5-6.3 Di VC USD G2 is king right now, used it is a toss up between the older Tamron and Sigma C but the Sigma 150-600mm f/5-6.3 DG OS HSM Contemporary Lens is probably just a tad better.

If you are inclined to look at primes there are two that are absolutely the best choices. The Canon EF 300mm f/4L IS USM Lens and the Canon EF 400mm f/5.6L USM Lens. The 400mm is a lens that I believe every photographer should have. It is such a delight to use. It is the only game in town as nobody makes a lens like it. The beauty of the 300mm is it handles the 1.4x tel-con very well giving you a 420mm f5.6 with IS. Again on the used market these are close to being doable at $800 bucks.

Re: Zoom Lens Above the usual

RobertTheFat — Tue, 04 Sep 2018 00:35:48 GMT

@Skippy2525 wrote:
PLEASE DO NOT refer to my father as "THE OLD MAN"!

I find that very offensive!

The fact that I am not willing to part with my father's lenses is of no consequence to you!

I asked a simple question about buying another lens.

Please keep all comments within that topic.

Thank you.

Well, it certainly wasn't my intention to offend you or your father's memory. I was merely expressing an opinion as to how familial heirs ought to treat camera equipment they inherit. You're obviously under no obligation to agree with me or follow my advice. And as an old man myself, it didn't occur to me that you would find the term offensive.