topic Re: 896mm Comparison Canon 400mm F5.6 vs Canon 100-400mm II on Canon 80D with a Canon 1,4x Extender in EF & RF Lenses

896mm Comparison Canon 400mm F5.6 vs Canon 100-400mm II on Canon 80D with a Canon 1,4x Extender III

JosephKarpinski — Sun, 15 Apr 2018 01:38:52 GMT

Hi,
First, I’ve been getting really good results at 896mm using a Canon 80D, Canon 100-400mm, and the Canon 1.4x Extender III.
Even handheld with shutter 2000, f/10 for field of view, and auto ISO.
Love having up to 27 AF points at f/8 for BIF.
Use a monopod when I can, to address the weight issue.
Feels like Canon tuned this combination for performance and image sharpness.
When I use the Canon 400mm F5.6 with the Canon 80D and the 1.4x Extender III the results are surprisingly not as good.
With only the single center AF point at f/8 the images are soft at 896mm.
Feels like the AF misses a lot of shots even when compared to using a single AF point with the Canon 100-400mm II.
Its like the Canon 400mm F5.6 lens doesn’t work as well with the 1,4x Extender.
By itself the Canon 400mm F5.6 AF is quick and sharp.
When I add a 1.4x Extender, not as quick or sharp.
The Canon 100-400mm works so well with the 1,4x Extender on the Canon 80D, that I rarely take it off.
Its that good.

Re: 896mm Comparison Canon 400mm F5.6 vs Canon 100-400mm II on Canon 80D with a Canon 1,4x Extender

ebiggs1 — Sun, 15 Apr 2018 14:14:07 GMT

Would you care to share some examples?

Re: 896mm Comparison Canon 400mm F5.6 vs Canon 100-400mm II on Canon 80D with a Canon 1,4x Extender

Waddizzle — Sun, 15 Apr 2018 15:35:37 GMT

Having only one available f/8 AF point with the 400mm and the 1.4x III doesn’t sound right to me. You should still have the 27 f/8 points, but maybe not with that particular lens.

Different lenses fall into different AF groups, when it comes to AF point functionality and availability. I would have expected a prime to give you the best results, 27 f/8 AF points.

Re: 896mm Comparison Canon 400mm F5.6 vs Canon 100-400mm II on Canon 80D with a Canon 1,4x Extender

JosephKarpinski — Sun, 15 Apr 2018 16:03:28 GMT

The new Canon 80D supports 27 AF points at f/8 using the new Canon 100-400mm II lens and the new 1.4x Extender III.

With the older 400mm F5.6 lens, in combination with the new 1.4x Extender, it only supports 1 AF point.

The Canon 7D Mark II only supports a single AF point when using the 1,4x Extender on both the Canon 400mm F5.6

and the Canon 100-400mm II. Thus the reason for upgrading to the Canon 80D.

Re: 896mm Comparison Canon 400mm F5.6 vs Canon 100-400mm II on Canon 80D with a Canon 1,4x Extender

TTMartin — Sun, 15 Apr 2018 18:59:46 GMT

@JosephKarpinskiwrote:
Hi,
First, I’ve been getting really good results at 896mm using a Canon 80D, Canon 100-400mm, and the Canon 1.4x Extender III.
Even handheld with shutter 2000, f/10 for field of view, and auto ISO.
Love having up to 27 AF points at f/8 for BIF.
Use a monopod when I can, to address the weight issue.
Feels like Canon tuned this combination for performance and image sharpness.
When I use the Canon 400mm F5.6 with the Canon 80D and the 1.4x Extender III the results are surprisingly not as good.
With only the single center AF point at f/8 the images are soft at 896mm.
Feels like the AF misses a lot of shots even when compared to using a single AF point with the Canon 100-400mm II.
Its like the Canon 400mm F5.6 lens doesn’t work as well with the 1,4x Extender.
By itself the Canon 400mm F5.6 AF is quick and sharp.
When I add a 1.4x Extender, not as quick or sharp.
The Canon 100-400mm works so well with the 1,4x Extender on the Canon 80D, that I rarely take it off.
Its that good.

Yes, Canon has optimized all of their IS II series big whites to work with the series III teleconverters.

Even with my 7D Mk II I agree the Canon 100-400mm L IS II works so well with the 1,4x Extender, that I rarely take it off.
Its that good.

Those that haven't tried the combination and are relying on stale information where older lenses didn't perform as well with teleconverters (as you experienced) don't know what they are missing.

Every time someone talks about Canon coming out with a 150-600 lens to match Tamron or Sigma, I say they already have the EF 100-400 IS II with a 1.4X TC III. Bether image quality, L lens build quality and less weight than 3rd party 150-600 lenses.

Even with my 7D Mk II I agree the Canon 100-400mm L IS II works so well with the 1,4x Extender, that I rarely take it off.
Its that good.

Re: 896mm Comparison Canon 400mm F5.6 vs Canon 100-400mm II on Canon 80D with a Canon 1,4x Extender

ebiggs1 — Sun, 15 Apr 2018 20:07:45 GMT

"Every time someone talks about Canon coming out with a 150-600 lens to match Tamron or Sigma, I say they already have the EF 100-400 IS II with a 1.4X TC III."

You may have answered the question of when, or even if, Canon offers a ~~150~~ 200-600mm f5-6.3 lens. There have been design patents for a ef 200-600mm super zoom. It is not an "L" level lens, though. It is supposed to be in direct competition to the Sigma and Tamron. If Canon did a 200-600mm L lens it would cost ten grand !

Brand-N has and for some time now a AF-S NIKKOR 200-500mm f/5.6E ED VR Lens. I don't own it but have used it. It isn't as good as either the SIgma or Tamron (certainly not as good as the G2).

Re: 896mm Comparison Canon 400mm F5.6 vs Canon 100-400mm II on Canon 80D with a Canon 1,4x Extender

JosephKarpinski — Sun, 15 Apr 2018 21:15:46 GMT

This is just my opinion, but I found the Canon 7D Mark II performance and image quality just ok, when used with the Canon 100-400 II and the 1.4x Extender III. The single AF point at f/8 was good in busy background settings, but BIF were a challenge. I prefer the 9 center cross-type AF points at f/8 on the Canon 80D for BIF. More in-focus keepers.

The single AF point on the Canon 7D Mark II at 896mm was sluggish at time, compared to the AF on the Canon 80D.

And the image quality of the Canon 80D was sharp even in lowlight and high ISO. Surprising image quality at 2000-5000 ISO.

Read somewhere that the Canon 80D has more metal connectors when attaching to the 1.4x Extender III, than the older 7D Mark II. And for the cost of a Canon 7D Mark II, one can buy both the Canon 80D and the 1.4x Extender III.

While the Canon 7D Mark II is a better built professional camera with a higher frame rate, larger buffer, more AF points, dual card slots, etc, etc, at 896mm the lower price Canon 80D shines with AF performance and image quality.

Re: 896mm Comparison Canon 400mm F5.6 vs Canon 100-400mm II on Canon 80D with a Canon 1,4x Extender

JosephKarpinski — Sun, 15 Apr 2018 22:53:52 GMT

Examples here on my Instagram account

https://www.instagram.com/josephkarpinski/

Re: 896mm Comparison Canon 400mm F5.6 vs Canon 100-400mm II on Canon 80D with a Canon 1,4x Extender

Waddizzle — Mon, 16 Apr 2018 01:47:48 GMT

@JosephKarpinskiwrote:
This is just my opinion, but I found the Canon 7D Mark II performance and image quality just ok, when used with the Canon 100-400 II and the 1.4x Extender III. The single AF point at f/8 was good in busy background settings, but BIF were a challenge. I prefer the 9 center cross-type AF points at f/8 on the Canon 80D for BIF. More in-focus keepers.
The single AF point on the Canon 7D Mark II at 896mm was sluggish at time, compared to the AF on the Canon 80D.
And the image quality of the Canon 80D was sharp even in lowlight and high ISO. Surprising image quality at 2000-5000 ISO.
Read somewhere that the Canon 80D has more metal connectors when attaching to the 1.4x Extender III, than the older 7D Mark II. And for the cost of a Canon 7D Mark II, one can buy both the Canon 80D and the 1.4x Extender III.
While the Canon 7D Mark II is a better built professional camera with a higher frame rate, larger buffer, more AF points, dual card slots, etc, etc, at 896mm the lower price Canon 80D shines with AF performance and image quality.

The AF system 80D outperforms the older 7D2 AF system in a lot of ways. I also get a higher keeper rate with the 80D, and the 6D2, compared to the 7D2. I haven’t used the 1.4x III very often, but it does slow down the AF system a bit.

Re: 896mm Comparison Canon 400mm F5.6 vs Canon 100-400mm II on Canon 80D with a Canon 1,4x Extender

ebiggs1 — Mon, 16 Apr 2018 14:18:58 GMT

"Examples here on my Instagram account"

I don't see a lot of difference between your 400mm and 100-400mm. Hard to tell your shots are so varying. When you are comparing two lenses you need to have basically the same situation and conditions. Distance is also critical. Birds shot at great distances is going to be less sharp no matter what lens you use.

The new 100-400mil super zoom should have better IQ than the aging 400mm but the old guy is still a great unique lens. Used by itself, no tel-con, it will old its own.

Another thing to remember is the extreme FL you are trying to use. Any miscue will be magnified by the same amount as the magnification of the subject. All the vibrations. Any mis-focus, everything. This is why we say getting closer is always better than getting a better lens. The ef 400mm prime is a joy to use hand-held but with a 1.4x tel-con it isn't such a friend for hand-holding. The gull was a hand-hold shot.

Re: 896mm Comparison Canon 400mm F5.6 vs Canon 100-400mm II on Canon 80D with a Canon 1,4x Extender

JosephKarpinski — Mon, 16 Apr 2018 16:31:43 GMT

I agree. Had very good luck with the 400mm F5.6. The thing is, everything in Wildlife photography is far away.

The 400mm F5.6 is good at middle distance, but beyond that crops at 100% start breaking down.

The 896mm combination gives just that more reach. And when 896mm is too much, pulling back on the zoom is really nice.

Especially when images are sharp across the whole range.

I think the image stabilization is also a plus when shooting at 896mm on the Canon 100-400mm.

I like shooting at a shutter speed of 2000 at f/10 for field of view sharpness.

In low light I can drop down to a shutter of 800, and then shoot at f/8, with good images at ISO 2000-5000.

Extremely flexible.

Re: 896mm Comparison Canon 400mm F5.6 vs Canon 100-400mm II on Canon 80D with a Canon 1,4x Extender

ebiggs1 — Mon, 16 Apr 2018 18:50:02 GMT

"The thing is, everything in Wildlife photography is far away."

Exactly, that is why it is a difficult challenge to do. However, the answer is not more FL in this case. Especially nearly 900mm.

900mm is never going to be easy and you are going to have less than the best shots. The distance has become your enemy. The atmosphere is a problem. You need to spend more effort on getting closer.

This shot was about 30 yards which is way farther away than I like to shoot. I had to crop it farther than I like also.

I know it is duffucult to get close to some wildlife and some you don't even want to be too close. But it is the best solution if you want the best results. 900mm of FL is not the best answer.

Re: 896mm Comparison Canon 400mm F5.6 vs Canon 100-400mm II on Canon 80D with a Canon 1,4x Extender

JosephKarpinski — Mon, 16 Apr 2018 20:36:09 GMT

Well, here’s some quick shots at 896mm.

Where you just can’t get any closer:

Re: 896mm Comparison Canon 400mm F5.6 vs Canon 100-400mm II on Canon 80D with a Canon 1,4x Extender

JosephKarpinski — Mon, 16 Apr 2018 20:52:03 GMT

Still more at 896mm

Re: 896mm Comparison Canon 400mm F5.6 vs Canon 100-400mm II on Canon 80D with a Canon 1,4x Extender

RobertTheFat — Mon, 16 Apr 2018 20:53:26 GMT

With birds, the best approach, if you have the patience, is to try to befriend them. Once they get the idea that you always have a treat available, they'll let you get as close as you need to. (A related proverb is that a National Park animal never turns down a free meal.) A few years ago there was a guy on another forum who routinely got fantastic pictures of hummingbirds. He did it by setting up a feeder that dispensed some sort of flavored sugar water that he knew they liked. Most people rarely see a hummingbird outside of a zoo. He had to practically swat them away.

When our kids were small, they liked to feed the wild ducks that frequented a pond in back of our house. I remember one day when they didn't get out there soon enough, and that year's duck family came up and started banging on the back door to get their attention.

Re: 896mm Comparison Canon 400mm F5.6 vs Canon 100-400mm II on Canon 80D with a Canon 1,4x Extender

ebiggs1 — Mon, 16 Apr 2018 21:32:18 GMT

Your shots are really nice. They are as good as you can likely expect. The only way I see to get better IQ is to use less FL and get closer. However, you say that is impossible. With the increased distance you start fighting the air it self. Besides the resolution of any lens goes down as distance to subject increases. I know everybody wants to improve and get forever better but in your case I think closing the distance is all that is left. You are doing fine using what you have and the situation presented to you.

Like Robert suggested, tempting the animals with treats or perhaps camo clothing or a blind, etc. That is what is left.

Re: 896mm Comparison Canon 400mm F5.6 vs Canon 100-400mm II on Canon 80D with a Canon 1,4x Extender

JosephKarpinski — Mon, 16 Apr 2018 22:27:55 GMT

Thanks!

My original concern was how my Canon 400mm F5.6 seemed to struggle when adding a 1.4x Extender.

So much so in image softness and missed out of focus shots, that I rarely used the 1.4x Extender.

Really felt like the single AF point at f/8 was struggling.

Watching some YouTube video on the Canon 80D, and it’s new support of 27 AF points using a Canon 1.4x Extender III,

had me buying a refurbished Canon 80D and a refurbished Canon 100-400mm II from Canon USA.

https://youtu.be/Ir6kkSFS618

The AF tracking was fast and almost all my shots were in focus and sharp, on the Canon 80D.

Some get excited about the Canon 7D Mark II 10 frames a second.

But if 6 out of 10 are not in focus or sharp, 10 frames doesn’t buy you very much.

Many look at Sigma or Tamron 150-600mm to get that extra reach.

I hear from those who have those lenses, they all struggle at the high end.

The Canon 100-400mm II with the Canon 1.4x Extender III on a Canon 80D is a great alternative.

Re: 896mm Comparison Canon 400mm F5.6 vs Canon 100-400mm II on Canon 80D with a Canon 1,4x Extender

Waddizzle — Tue, 17 Apr 2018 10:25:52 GMT

@JosephKarpinskiwrote:
Thanks!
My original concern was how my Canon 400mm F5.6 seemed to struggle when adding a 1.4x Extender.
So much so in image softness and missed out of focus shots, that I rarely used the 1.4x Extender.
Really felt like the single AF point at f/8 was struggling.
Watching some YouTube video on the Canon 80D, and it’s new support of 27 AF points using a Canon 1.4x Extender III,
had me buying a refurbished Canon 80D and a refurbished Canon 100-400mm II from Canon USA.

https://youtu.be/Ir6kkSFS618

The AF tracking was fast and almost all my shots were in focus and sharp, on the Canon 80D.
Some get excited about the Canon 7D Mark II 10 frames a second.
But if 6 out of 10 are not in focus or sharp, 10 frames doesn’t buy you very much.

Many look at Sigma or Tamron 150-600mm to get that extra reach.
I hear from those who have those lenses, they all struggle at the high end.

The Canon 100-400mm II with the Canon 1.4x Extender III on a Canon 80D is a great alternative.

The AF system in the 80D is at least the equal o the 7D2. It is next level better, IMHO.

Re: 896mm Comparison Canon 400mm F5.6 vs Canon 100-400mm II on Canon 80D with a Canon 1,4x Extender

TTMartin — Tue, 17 Apr 2018 11:58:14 GMT

Audubon’s Guide to Ethical Bird Photography

Respect for birds and their habitats must come before getting that perfect shot. Here's how to be a responsible bird photographer.

The first essential element in bird photography is a sincere respect for the birds and their environment. In any conflict of interest, the well-being of the birds and their habitats must come before the ambitions of the photographer. Here are some basic guidelines.

Avoid causing unnecessary disturbance or stress to birds.

Use a telephoto lens or a blind for close-up shots. If your approach causes a bird to flush (fly or run away) or change its behavior, you’re too close.

Some birds may “freeze” in place rather than flying away, or may hunch into a protective, aggressive, or pre-flight stance. Watch for changes in posture indicating that the birds are stressed, and if you see these, back away.

Never advance on a bird with the intention of making it fly.

Use flash sparingly (if at all), as a supplement to natural light. Avoid the use of flash on nocturnal birds at night, as it may temporarily limit their ability to hunt for food.

Before sharing locations of specific birds with other photographers or birders, think carefully about potential impacts to the birds or their habitats.

Concern for birds’ habitat is also essential. Be aware of your surroundings. Avoid trampling sensitive vegetation or disturbing other wildlife.

Nesting birds are particularly vulnerable and need special consideration

Keep a respectful distance from the nest. If you’re using a macro lens or including the nest as a focal point in an image with a wide-angle lens, even if you’re operating the camera remotely, you’re probably too close. Telephoto lenses of at least 500mm are recommended.

Avoid flushing the adults, scaring the young, or doing anything to draw the attention of predators to the nest. For example, repeatedly walking to a nest can leave both a foot trail and scent trail for predators.

Do not move or remove anything around the nest, as it may be providing both essential camouflage and protection from the elements.

Never use drones to photograph nests, as they can cause injury and stress to the nestlings and parents.

Luring birds closer for photography is often possible but should be done in a responsible way.

Birdfeeding stations, whether or not they’re used for photography, should be kept clean, stocked only with appropriate food items, and positioned with the birds’ safety in mind.

Never lure hawks or owls with live bait, or with decoys such as artificial or dead mice. Baiting can change the behavior of these predatory birds in ways that are harmful for them.

Playback of bird voices to lure them close for photography should be used sparingly, and not at all in the case of endangered birds, or birds at critical points in their nesting cycle.

Show respect for private and public property and consideration for other people.

Enter private land only with permission. On public property such as parks and refuges, be aware of local regulations, hours, and closed areas.

In group situations be considerate of other photographers and birders who may be watching the same bird. Remember that your desire to photograph the bird doesn’t outweigh the rights of others to observe it. Remember also that large groups of people are potentially more disturbing to birds, so it may be necessary to keep a greater distance.

Re: 896mm Comparison Canon 400mm F5.6 vs Canon 100-400mm II on Canon 80D with a Canon 1,4x Extender

garymak — Sat, 27 Jul 2024 01:08:04 GMT

Reading this years later looking for tele-converter opinions and saw your "use left 'FL'"... what is "FL"??