topic Re: Update/getting your advice on the perfect portrait setup for my M50 in EF & RF Lenses

Update/getting your advice on the perfect portrait setup for my M50

bigbrother — Sat, 17 Oct 2020 06:28:49 GMT

So this has been interesting. I'm somewhere above beginner, I'd say, and for my fashion/portraiture work was looking to home in on my perfect solution.

I began with the expected kit lens and 50mm f1.8 with Canon adapter. Absolutely fell in love with the nifty and really, almost anytime I diverge from 50 at 1.8, regret it. It's just a perfect set up for 95% of the shots I take.

Well, almost perfect :). I didn't know about the sensor scaling aspect before purchasing and so the zoom-in with the 50 has been hampering me sometimes. Really, besides that it's been awesome.

Anyway, my attention was directed to the native 32mm f1.4 and it looked really impressive, especially given Canon designed it to scale to the equivalent of about 50mm.

Now, I'm just starting off and can't blow $300 on a speculative lens, so I started looking at rental places around me. As I somewhat expected, they don't stock $300 lenses :). But, last night I saw an EF 35mm f1.4 that many places carry and thought, "oh, THIS is going to be cool!" I confirmed with Canon support that it would be more or less the same as the native 32 (though I was of course expecting higher overall quality) and excitedly rented one nearby for $30 this morning for today's shoot. Wow what a beast, physically-speaking.

I take it to the shoot and no joke, 3 or 4 shots in and I'm RACING to swap my 50 back on there. The shots from the 35 were looking awful by comparison. For starters, the sharpness/color/overall quality were no better, but critically, the perspective change made the subject look awful. I didn't expect such a dramatic change going just from 50 to 35 (especially since Canon picked this length for their M portrait lens), but there it was!

So anyway, I decided 50 is much, much more my taste for these shots.

I happened to come across the Speed Booster last night when looking at random videos along these lines, and I think (?) that's the right solution for me. I get to keep 50mm perspective but get to undo the scaling, more or less.

But I am, alas, barely above beginner when it comes to such things. Should I consider anything else given all the above? I'm zoomed in too much as is but love the 50 perspective. I saw that the Speed Booster degrades image quality more than the Canon adapter so am a little hesitant on that front.

Anyway thanks for reading along and would love to get your thoughts!

Re: Update/getting your advice on the perfect portrait setup for my M50

MikeSowsun — Sat, 17 Oct 2020 17:23:42 GMT

On a full frame camera, with a 24mm x 36mm sensor, the classic portrait lens has long been either 85mm or 135mm.

On your crop sensor M50, that would translate to 50mm or 85mm. You were wrong to assume 35mm would be a good portrait lens. (maybe if you are doing full body shots)

There is a rule of thumb that any kind of portrait should be at least 10' away from the subject in order to avoid perspective distortion which exaggerates facial features on your subject. Perspective distortion has nothing to do with the lens or it's focal length, and everything to do with the distance from the subject.

A speed booster is not your answer either. Adding a speed booster to your 50mm lens will just make it act just like a 35mm lens, and you will have the same disappointment.

Re: Update/getting your advice on the perfect portrait setup for my M50

ebiggs1 — Sat, 17 Oct 2020 14:25:19 GMT

Stick with your 50mm. It is your best choice. Do not use any add-ons like the Speed booster. Most of that stuff is junk.

I don't know where you got the idea of "scaling". But it is incorrect. There is just AOV or angle of view. Since the sensor is smaller in the M50 than a 35mm camera is has a different AOV. But only if you are comparing the two. There is no reason to do that. Certain AOV enhance the human face. It happens the 50mm on your camera and/or 85mm of a FF camera do this well.

You can check an AOV chart to see where these lenses fall. You will notice the 35mm on a M50 is way out of the specs.

The lens of choice for the pros seems to be the 70-200mm zoom anymore. It is what I use on my 1DX. However there is no equivalent FL for the M50 I know of. Roughly a 48-130mm zoom? Maybe someone else knows of one?

Re: Update/getting your advice on the perfect portrait setup for my M50

bigbrother — Sat, 17 Oct 2020 18:29:30 GMT

Wait, this is quite confusing then.

I thought every time I hear about scale factors/cropping/sensor size phenomena, it's always referring to a scaling in image space, isn't it? Optically, there is no change in perspective or distortion correct? When Canon touts that their EF M 32 lens behaves like a 51 on the M series, it's just the image size at a given distance, right? A true 50mm at the same distance would create a different image due to its particular perspective yes?

And if I were to get something like a speed booster, when it's changing crop factors, I thought that's it, it's all just image cropping. The perspective to expect is exactly what's printed on the lens, I thought.

I ask for obvious reasons but basically I want to know A) how things are technically working, B) that my recent experience tells me that in fact anything shorter than 50 is a no-go for what I'm trying to achieve (on any sensor!), C) that what I'm achieving is in fact the result of a 50mm's perspective and not an 80-85mm (which would be the case if I'm wrong and the scaling is actually optically causing a perspective change to a different length), etc. etc. etc.

You get the point.

Thanks!

Re: Update/getting your advice on the perfect portrait setup for my M50

MikeSowsun — Sat, 17 Oct 2020 18:48:12 GMT

As I said before, "Perspective distortion has nothing to do with the lens or it's focal length, and everything to do with the distance from the subject."

Scaling, Angle of view, focal length, crop factor, aperture, etc, all have nothing to do with perspective distortion. If you shove a camera up to the nose of your subject, that nose is going to look HUGE and disproportionate.

Stand back 10 feet and take the picture and it will look just fine. You can use whatever lens and camera combination you want, to get the framing you want, but you need to stay back.

It sounds like you find 50mm on your M50 to be a little too tight for the portrait framing you want to achieve. Just move back a little and 50mm will be fine. If you can't move back, your room is too small, and there is nothing you can do to fix it. It is simple physics.

Re: Update/getting your advice on the perfect portrait setup for my M50

bigbrother — Sat, 17 Oct 2020 19:43:35 GMT

"Perspective distortion has nothing to do with the lens or it's focal length, and everything to do with the distance from the subject."

Then I'm missing something basic here (or perhaps your answer is a tad pedantic? :)) With your subject occupying the same area in your frame, you're going to experience massive differences in perspective/distortion, as you know:

https://clicklovegrow.com/wp-content/new_folder/2014/11/zoom-vs-out.jpg

Perhaps I didn't use the exact right terminology above but I feel you know what I'm trying to achieve. All I'm trying to say is that at 50mm, the subject occupying the same space is proportioned very well; with the 32 she wasn't at all.

Ergo, I know that at that width/lens length (or shorter) I'm not going to get what I want at portrait framings, regardless of my distance to the subject!

Now what I'm trying to understand is if crop/scale factors (like EF on an M body or speed booster on the EF) in any way change this warping/perspective/distortion or if it's just, in image-space, a scaling/cropping.

If it's just that, I can then use a speed booster to *not* have to get 10'-20' away from my subject for basic shots, which is in some situations inconvenient and in others downright impossible.

Re: Update/getting your advice on the perfect portrait setup for my M50

ebiggs1 — Sat, 17 Oct 2020 19:51:33 GMT

Let's start from the beginning. It doesn't help to just tell a person what to use or is best. You must understand why it is the way it is.

First a lens is a lens is a lens. It can not change once it is manufactured. No matter what camera you use it on. There is no scaling, no crop factor or "sensor size phenomena". The only reason these terms exists is if someone wants to compare a given lens to different camera formats. Otherwise it is useless.

What you need to understans is AOV or angle of view. A AOV char is helpful.

It is generally thought that a lens that gives a AOV in the 20 degree to 28 degree is best for portraits. Again lenses do not change their FL or their aperture or anything just because you use it on a crop sensor camera. And, nothing is cropped or scaled or anything. You get exactly what you see in the view finder. As you can read from the AOV chart a 55mm to 60mm lens would be ideal.

Re: Update/getting your advice on the perfect portrait setup for my M50

ebiggs1 — Sat, 17 Oct 2020 19:58:24 GMT

"Perspective distortion has nothing to do with the lens or it's focal length, and everything to do with the distance from the subject."

This statement while true is not clear as it might be. Consider this, if you stand 10 feet from a subject and take a shot now move back 100 feet, same lens, the perspective changes but the lens did not. The AOV stayed the same. Can't change. As you distance yourself form a subject you have to add the angle as the distance between its arc widens.

Re: Update/getting your advice on the perfect portrait setup for my M50

bigbrother — Sat, 17 Oct 2020 20:11:21 GMT

What's funny is I was about to come back here to write something like this, due to a realization I think I had just now while responding to a similar thread on another forum.

So I think it goes like this, simple example:

Say I have a perfect head and shoulders shot in my frame. Setup is a 50mm, with adapter, on my M50.

I change the adapter to a speed booster. Now instead of standing 10' away to get this ideal framing, I only need to stand 6' away. But due to getting closer the effective distortion has changed.

This leads me to wonder if deep zoom from a far distance is some ideal for portraiture... but that certainly can't be the case because I'm sure you can flatten things too much, plus you never see photographers taking portraits from 50' away :).

Re: Update/getting your advice on the perfect portrait setup for my M50

bigbrother — Sat, 17 Oct 2020 20:26:40 GMT

Ok, ebiggs, I know I'm double answering before a response :), but I think I get what you mean now!

The constant (that is, the thing to shoor for) is AOV, plain and simple. So the chart you posted is much more authoritative/important than any sort of length numbers. All one needs to know is the ideal AOV for the objective and then work backwards to know the right lens/equipment combo.

I'm curious now where you got the 20-28 deg. AOV for portrait number. Seems to fit what I like as well. Is this from personal experience, a guide, or some long-held knowledge you have from God-knows-where/how-far-back?:).

Thanks!

Re: Update/getting your advice on the perfect portrait setup for my M50

MikeSowsun — Sat, 17 Oct 2020 20:56:41 GMT

@bigbrother wrote:
What's funny is I was about to come back here to write something like this, due to a realization I think I had just now while responding to a similar thread on another forum.

So I think it goes like this, simple example:

Say I have a perfect head and shoulders shot in my frame. Setup is a 50mm, with adapter, on my M50.

I change the adapter to a speed booster. Now instead of standing 10' away to get this ideal framing, I only need to stand 6' away. But due to getting closer the effective distortion has changed.

This leads me to wonder if deep zoom from a far distance is some ideal for portraiture... but that certainly can't be the case because I'm sure you can flatten things too much, plus you never see photographers taking portraits from 50' away :).

Yes, 50' is too much, but 15-20 feet with a long lens can work. It will not flatten too much, but it is difficult to communicate with your subject if you are too far away. The EF 70-200mm f/2.8 is a VERY popular portrait lens for a reason.

Re: Update/getting your advice on the perfect portrait setup for my M50

ebiggs1 — Sat, 17 Oct 2020 20:54:52 GMT

Bingo! I think you got it.
Yes the AOV suggested is considered best.

Crop factor was a phrase coined so people could compare a lens for one format to another. Otherwise it is useless and totally confusing.

Re: Update/getting your advice on the perfect portrait setup for my M50

bigbrother — Sat, 17 Oct 2020 21:00:24 GMT

Right, and I was also going to say it seems like what we (noobs that is :)) are suffering from is the fact that full frame was such a prevalent thing for so long that focal lengths *for that sensor* became so ingrained/understood to be certain AOVs that that became the standard.

The king is dead, long live AOV?

🙂

Re: Update/getting your advice on the perfect portrait setup for my M50

ebiggs1 — Sat, 17 Oct 2020 23:46:42 GMT

"The EF 70-200mm f/2.8 is a VERY popular portrait lens for a reason."

Although 70mm end might work on the M50, the FL going up from there would be out of, to very much out of, our sweet spot AOV. There isn't a zoom in that FL for a M50 that I know of. Sigma used to make 50-150mm zoom that was close but I believe it has been discontinued.

The 70-200mm zoom is a favorite of the full frame guys.

Re: Update/getting your advice on the perfect portrait setup for my M50

ebiggs1 — Sat, 17 Oct 2020 23:56:48 GMT

Just think the 4/3 guys have to use 12mm to 17mm to get the same perspective. As sensor size shrinks the ability to get wide to super and ultra wide AOV becomes impossible. That is a place where a larger sensor can be a benefit. However, the 4/3 guys get a free kick on the tele end as that becomes much easier to achieve.

Re: Update/getting your advice on the perfect portrait setup for my M50

wq9nsc — Sun, 18 Oct 2020 01:39:36 GMT

Shooting portraits is definitely not an area of photography I aspire to enter but one of the multiple sports students asked me to shoot some senior photos and because he wanted a lot of action shots in the mix I agreed to do so. I used more traditional portrait lenses for most of the posed photos but I brought the EF 200 f2 along because it can create beautiful sports images at the right distance.

For fun I tried a few posed shots using the EF 200 on a 5DS R body and it does have its applications. Because of gale force winds destroying the tree leaves part of Fall color earlier in the week, the best Fall color left was a clump of colorful weeds. The EF 200 nearly wide open nicely turned the weeds into a colorful blur, I wish I could so easily make them not a problem when they pop up in the gardens throughout the year.

Fortunately full sports will be returning in the future so that I won't be cursing the portrait world with my work. I am much more comfortable and have MUCH more fun with action shooting. I do enjoy reading about those who do this work on this Canon forum site but I plan to remain safely inside my action photography comfort bubble. I will be spending some quality time with Photoshop fine tuning some of these images tomorrow.

Rodger

Re: Update/getting your advice on the perfect portrait setup for my M50

bigbrother — Sun, 18 Oct 2020 01:50:23 GMT

ebiggs, something interesting occurred to me during this back-and-forth; I realized that my partner and I really chanced upon something ideal, and it was quite fortuitous. See, we knew all about the vaunted nifty and thought it was the perfect way to get started in all this.

Well, what we *didn't* know about, at all, at purchase was the sensor scaling. Point being, we were getting an 80mm lens (ok, I know, here I go again using full frame-biased speech ;), but you know what I mean) and the results, as said, have been nothing short of astounding. Truly, it almost feels unfair how well these come out, and I curse myself when I deviate from 50/1.8 during these shoots.

But we haven't been shooting 50! I got to experience 50 yesterday when I slapped on that big EF 32 f.14 as far as I understand it, and as I said, the results sucked by comparison.

So we fortuitously stumbled into the ideal 20-30 deg AOV range for our portrait work.

Thanks small little sensor! 😉

Re: Update/getting your advice on the perfect portrait setup for my M50

ebiggs1 — Sun, 18 Oct 2020 14:06:15 GMT

"(ok, I know, here I go again using full frame-biased speech ..."

Unfortunately this will be with us for ever. It seems it has become ingrained into photo-speech. The more correct, incorrect term is "crop factor". Most will not understand what you are talking about if you use the word "scaling".

Funny, too, most new shooters (I have taught DSLR 101 classes) today have never use a 35mm camera and have no reason the compare FL to it. Most just realize their 18-55mm kit zoom is good for general purpose. They never think, oh I have a 28-85mm equivalent lens.

In fact you never hear the Medium format guys refer to their cameras as "enlargement factor" cameras. They certainly qualify since they have the oppisite effect.