topic Re: Lens uestion: Sigma 150-600 or Canon 1.4x in EF & RF Lenses

Lens uestion: Sigma 150-600 or Canon 1.4x

ibskiing — Thu, 16 Apr 2020 21:37:42 GMT

Hello,

I have a Canon 80D with a canon 70-300 zoom lens (Canon EF 70-300mm f/4-5.6 L). It is a very good lens that I use mostly for wildlife and birds. However, I would like to have more zoom capacity.

I am considering the Sigma 150-600mm lens for around $890 or the Canon EF 1.4X III for half the price. The 1.4x would get increase my zoom to 420.

The 1.4x is cheaper, but I believe my current Canon lens is probably of higher quality than the Sigma. So would the quality of these pics help make up for the lack of zoom that the Sigma would provide? Or would the 1.4x degrade the qualify of the pics?

I appreciate anyones input. Thanks,

Re: Lens uestion: Sigma 150-600 or Canon 1.4x

Waddizzle — Thu, 16 Apr 2020 23:59:20 GMT

Nothing in life is free. When you use the 1.4x, you will gain focal length. The price that you pay is that you sacrifice maximum aperture. You will lose an entire stop of light. Your f/4-5.6 range of aperture will become f/5.6-8.

If this is news to you, then before you buy anything do some research on this topic. There are others caveats and gotchas associated with using a teleconverter. Another side effect is that you will lose AF points. Many of your AF points will be disabled with an f/8 lens.

The 80D has 27 points that can function at f/8. You will have three rows of [9] AF points, running across the center of the viewfinder display. This is much better than the highly regarded 7D Mark II, which only has 1 AF point, the center one.

My recommendation is to go for the Sigma "C", or the Tamron "G2". Be sure to get the accessory USB port device, which is available from the respective manufacturer for either lens.

Be warned that these lenses are beasts. Read the specs on their physical size and weight. Some sort of support is recommended for extended shooting sessions. I use a monopod with my Sigma "C". It is much easier to carry around still attached than a tripod.

Re: Lens uestion: Sigma 150-600 or Canon 1.4x

cicopo — Thu, 16 Apr 2020 23:47:00 GMT

Also note that using a TC slows down the AF. Not that important with static targets but very important if tracking a moving target. I've used the Sigma for a few years shooting some VERY fast moving RC aircraft & the AF has no trouble tracking them. Some are flying at speeds in excess of 200 MPH / 325 KPH. This is one that flys in that speed range & was at full speed when I took the photo.

Re: Lens uestion: Sigma 150-600 or Canon 1.4x

RobertTheFat — Fri, 17 Apr 2020 00:19:36 GMT

@ibskiing wrote:
Hello,
I have a Canon 80D with a canon 70-300 zoom lens (Canon EF 70-300mm f/4-5.6 L). It is a very good lens that I use mostly for wildlife and birds. However, I would like to have more zoom capacity.

I am considering the Sigma 150-600mm lens for around $890 or the Canon EF 1.4X III for half the price. The 1.4x would get increase my zoom to 420.

The 1.4x is cheaper, but I believe my current Canon lens is probably of higher quality than the Sigma. So would the quality of these pics help make up for the lack of zoom that the Sigma would provide? Or would the 1.4x degrade the qualify of the pics?

I appreciate anyones input. Thanks,

I've found the 1.4x III TC to be a very satisfactory device. But I would not use it on anything but a constant-aperture f/2.8 (or faster) lens, e.g. the EF 70-200mm f/2.8L II, for all the reasons that the others have advanced.

Re: Lens uestion: Sigma 150-600 or Canon 1.4x

kvbarkley — Fri, 17 Apr 2020 00:30:48 GMT

One other point that is not obvious, is that that the Sigma lies to the camera so it will still autofocus, even if it is a bit beyond the AF limit for focusing. The Canon will not and the camera/lens/TC may refuse to AF.

Re: Lens uestion: Sigma 150-600 or Canon 1.4x

ebiggs1 — Fri, 17 Apr 2020 00:51:02 GMT

It is not just a bad idea to try to use the 1.4x III on your lens, it is a horrible idea. First your lens is not on Canon's list of approved lenses for usage of the tel-con. Even if it did "work" it would be awful.

The Sigma C is THE way to go. At this point the Tamron version marked the G2 is slightly better but the Siggy C is a real nice lens. I have one and use it a lot. It, as all the big super zooms are, well, big. They are not unusually difficult to handle for their size though. I rarely use any extra support and I use my Sigma S most of the time when I use a super zoom. A monopod would be a nice add-on, however. If you want to shoot BIF of course you don't want any thing that will hamper your movement and tracking of the bird. Such great focal length requires some extra learning and thought. But it is not beyond the average persons ability.

Re: Lens uestion: Sigma 150-600 or Canon 1.4x

ebiggs1 — Fri, 17 Apr 2020 00:57:41 GMT

"I have a Canon 80D ..."

Additionally, the big super zoom will be some serious FL (focal length) on a 80D body. I mention this because any motion or camera movement will show up in your photos. This is mostly overcome by keeping SS (shutter speed) above the "equivalent" FL. In your case than can be as fast as 1/1000. And, 1/1000 is the slowest SS, not top.

This is part of what the learning curve is when you get into extreme FL.

Re: Lens uestion: Sigma 150-600 or Canon 1.4x

ibskiing — Fri, 17 Apr 2020 01:20:41 GMT

Thanks everyone,

Yes I did read about the F stop issue with the 1.4x. I had read some people say the autofocus, if it worked, was slower. I had not read that you lose AF points. So it sounds like I should get a new lens.

My brother in-law bought the Sigma for his Nikon, I played around with a bit, so I am familiar with its size and weight. He has gotten some nice shoots from using it.

Some people mentioned the Tamron G2 being slightly nicer. Last I checked it was about $400 more. Is it worth the additional money? What are the main differences? Sigma has a sport version that gets rave reviews, but it is another $400 and heavier than the other two.

Thanks

Re: Lens uestion: Sigma 150-600 or Canon 1.4x

Waddizzle — Fri, 17 Apr 2020 05:36:48 GMT

@ibskiing wrote:
Thanks everyone,
Yes I did read about the F stop issue with the 1.4x. I had read some people say the autofocus, if it worked, was slower. I had not read that you lose AF points. So it sounds like I should get a new lens.

My brother in-law bought the Sigma for his Nikon, I played around with a bit, so I am familiar with its size and weight. He has gotten some nice shoots from using it.

Some people mentioned the Tamron G2 being slightly nicer. Last I checked it was about $400 more. Is it worth the additional money? What are the main differences? Sigma has a sport version that gets rave reviews, but it is another $400 and heavier than the other two.

Thanks

This is covered in the full version of the User Manual, beginning on page 127. Read up on lens groups. Some lenses may cause the focusing ability of some AF to degrade, even without a teleconverter.

Re: Lens uestion: Sigma 150-600 or Canon 1.4x

ebiggs1 — Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:12:32 GMT

"Some people mentioned the Tamron G2 being slightly nicer. Last I checked it was about $400 more. Is it worth the additional money?"

I love these super zooms. I ought to I have or have had every one that has come out including the first 150-500mm line up.

My choice is the Sigma 150-600mm f/5-6.3 DG OS HSM Sports Lens. All lens should be taken as a package and not just one or two specs. You need the one that does what you need it to do. For me the extreme build of the S is important. Why? Because I use my equipment and I expect it to be there and do its job no matter what. The S fills that requirement.

I would not call the Tamron G2 version as "nicer". It is slightly better in IQ right now but al any time Sigma may up theirs and that would not be true. Is the last little bit of IQ worth $400 bucks? It would be to me but it may not to you. It is slight and you really need to look at a regular photo to see it. Again, look at the total package not just the last drop of IQ. The Siggy C is a great lens.

"Sigma has a sport version ... it is another $400 and heavier than the other two."

It is significantly heavier than either of the other choices. It, again, is slightly sharper than the others. Is it worth the extra $400? To me it is, as I bought mine, at $1900, before they came down to their current price.

If you buy the Siggy C you will be happy with it.

f you have to up your brother-in-law a tiny bit buy the Tamron G2 and rub it in!

Re: Lens uestion: Sigma 150-600 or Canon 1.4x

ebiggs1 — Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:21:54 GMT

" I had read some people say the autofocus, if it worked, was slower. I had not read that you lose AF points. So it sounds like I should get a new lens."

The AF will be slower is not your major issue. Canon does not list the EF 70-300mm f/4-5.6 L as lens the 1.4x tel-con work with at all.

"This lens (1.4x tel-con III) is only compatible with fixed focal length L-series lenses 135mm and over, as well as the EF 70-200/2.8L, EF 70-200/2.8L IS, EF 70-200/4L, and EF 100-400/4.5-5.6L."

Loosing AF points on a super zoom tele-lens is not a big deal. I typically use just the center point anyway. I wouldn't worry about that. But using a tel-con isn't a good idea in first place, IMHO, of course. A natural FL lens is preferable.

Re: Lens uestion: Sigma 150-600 or Canon 1.4x

limvo05 — Tue, 02 Jun 2020 06:42:43 GMT

Is 420 FC length sufficient for bird photography? I am using Canon 70-200 f2.8 IS ii with Canon 2x iii converter and I feel 400mm is not long enough.

Re: Lens uestion: Sigma 150-600 or Canon 1.4x

Waddizzle — Tue, 02 Jun 2020 12:13:32 GMT

@limvo05 wrote:
Is 420 FC length sufficient for bird photography? I am using Canon 70-200 f2.8 IS ii with Canon 2x iii converter and I feel 400mm is not long enough.

It isn't. You want at least 600mm. The shot below was with a 1D Mark IV which has a 1.3 crop factor, a Sigma 150-600mm @600mm, with a 1.4x teleconverter. the distance to the bird might be about 20 feet. It was shot out of the window overlooking my 2FL outdoor deck. The photo is not cropped at all.

Re: Lens uestion: Sigma 150-600 or Canon 1.4x

ebiggs1 — Tue, 02 Jun 2020 13:48:11 GMT

"It isn't. You want at least 600mm."

The correct answer is, maybe. The old saying is you never can have a lens that is too fast or enough FL. But there is another part of the equation. How close can you get to your subject and how small is it. Is the bird an ostrich or a hummingbird? Can you get within a few yards or a few feet form it?

Getting closer is always preferable. Sometimes it isn't possible or perhaps even safe to do so. IMPO, I would say 400mm is the least I would feel comfortable using under most bird shooting situations around my area. However, I prefer my 150-600mm S super zoom.

One of the 150-600mm super zooms is probably THE choice today for the best lens for birding. Keeping in mind not all shots will be at 600mm FL.

Re: Lens uestion: Sigma 150-600 or Canon 1.4x

RobertTheFat — Tue, 02 Jun 2020 14:20:15 GMT

@ebiggs1 wrote:
"It isn't. You want at least 600mm."

The correct answer is, maybe. The old saying is you never can have a lens that is too fast or enough FL. But there is another part of the equation. How close can you get to your subject and how small is it. Is the bird an ostrich or a hummingbird? Can you get within a few yards or a few feet form it?
Getting closer is always preferable. Sometimes it isn't possible or perhaps even safe to do so. IMPO, I would say 400mm is the least I would feel comfortable using under most bird shooting situations around my area. However, I prefer my 150-600mm S super zoom.

One of the 150-600mm super zooms is probably THE choice today for the best lens for birding. Keeping in mind not all shots will be at 600mm FL.

And before you dismiss Ernie's point about getting closer, keep in mind that it's often possible to get the birds to take the initiative. A well stocked bird feeder can accomplish a lot. I used to frequent a photography Usenet newsgroup that included a photographer in Tennessee who specialized in hummingbirds. Hummingbirds are notoriously shy, (I've been within a few feet of a hummingbird twice that I can remember in my 82 years.) But the guy in Tennessee had figured out a version of flavored sugar water that they really liked, and there was usually a waiting line at his feeder. Once the birds got to know him, he was able to get all the pictures he could ever want.

Re: Lens uestion: Sigma 150-600 or Canon 1.4x

limvo05 — Tue, 02 Jun 2020 14:57:02 GMT

I agreed with what being said here. It's really called for the situation. Since I am still searching for the right lens for my bird photography fix, I've gone and bought a canvas that would allow me to get as close to the birds without alarming them of my presence. As you can in the photo below, it was taken at ISO 400 400FC F5.6 1/200sec and I was approximately 3 to 4 feet from the birdbath. The photo is a full-size screenshot of the actual.

Re: Lens uestion: Sigma 150-600 or Canon 1.4x

kvbarkley — Tue, 02 Jun 2020 15:11:01 GMT

Totally OT:

We were out on a golf course and a humingbird came up to drink from the flowers on my wife's top! She got cell phone snaps, but since it wasn't a Canon, I can't post them here. 8^)

Re: Lens uestion: Sigma 150-600 or Canon 1.4x

wq9nsc — Tue, 02 Jun 2020 15:46:24 GMT

One of the first things I learned for shooting sports was position is everything and although I am VERY new to taking bird photos the same applies. Ernie, which did you "shoot" first, bird or sports?

I quickly learned that bird photos take a lot of patience, sort of like fishing on a quiet pond or stream because you will often spend long periods of time waiting but you had also better be ready to act as soon as the opportunity presents itself.

I put up some bird feeders and a bird bath two weeks ago and not only do these provide an opportunity for you to set up in a good position they also encourage the birds to hang around nearby so you can get photos of them in more natural locations. They also get used to you from feeding and some are quite inquisitive. I spent an hour last weekend without success trying to get a good photo of a barn swallow in flight but while I was making that attempt the young male cardinal in these photos landed on the ground so close to me that he was far too close for the lens to focus. And sometimes birds get a little too close, Sunday a large buzzard was hovering far too close during the last mile of my 8 mile run and that was definitely creepy. Apparently there is not enough roadkill with the reduced activity due to pandemic so he was trying to drum up a little business.

You can get away with a lot of cropping with a good DSLR if the base image is sharp and taken at a reasonable ISO. I have four of the medium to long Canon primes (200, 300, 400, and 800) and although the 2X fills more of the sensor I think the end result of more heavily cropping with a 1.4X is probably going to provide about the same final quality as shooting with the 2X and often better.

Here are some examples from an EF 800 so the subject will cover about twice the sensor area of the 400. They are not cropped but are down sampled in pixel count to fit forum posting size limits. These were shot from around 30-40 feet away and I probably could have gotten a little closer but the gazebo is a perfect spot for photography without disturbing the subjects. I think that any of these could have been shot with a 400mm lens that provides good IQ and resulted in good images. The final image is a severe crop using only 6% of the sensor area of the 1DX III, it was shot at ISO 800. With a decent lens and reasonable lighting/exposure triangle severe cropping is possible.

Rodger

Re: Lens uestion: Sigma 150-600 or Canon 1.4x

ebiggs1 — Tue, 02 Jun 2020 16:33:32 GMT

"Ernie, which did you "shoot" first, bird or sports?"

I did sports, perhaps naturally, but I landed a job in the Graphic Arts division at Hallmark and since gravitated to the "arts" side of shooting. That is what I did for, and do for, the school district. I have only done sports shooting now on a requested basis like when someone, the real photographer, can't for some reason. Pretty rare.

I have done the "Corporate Challenge" series for a while now. But I think that might be over now, too.

Re: Lens uestion: Sigma 150-600 or Canon 1.4x

ebiggs1 — Tue, 02 Jun 2020 16:36:49 GMT

"... it was taken at ISO 400 400FC F5.6 1/200sec ..."

That's a pretty nice shot. I may suggest you consider upping the SS a bit. You did OK in that shot but that may not always be true, or the case, and a faster SS will help. IMPO, I would keep it over 1/500 for a 400mil lens.