topic Re: Help with focus: Canon EOS R with EF 70-200mm f/2.8 IS II and adapter ring in EF & RF Lenses

Help with focus: Canon EOS R with EF 70-200mm f/2.8 IS II and adapter ring

cdisimone — Thu, 09 Apr 2020 21:28:22 GMT

I had been using the EOS 5D Mark II for quite sometime until I recently bought the Canon EOS R. Today I tried my EF 70-200mm f/2.8 IS II for the first time with the EOS R. Admittedly, this is my most underutilized lens so I don't have a lot of shots to compare to, but I got some seriously disappointing results today when just shooting objects in my yard. I had a lot of trouble focusing using the center focus point on the smallest setting. Maybe I am doing something wrong... looking for some guidance.

I have had tack sharp images with the other EF lenses I have tried with the EOS R so I'm hoping it is something I am doing... and that there is nothing wrong with the lens. My test shots were all handheld but on a pretty fast shutter speed, wide open and zoomed in at 200mm, and I was sitting and leaning my back against a wall so I should have been pretty still as well. I used single shot focus in the center and just snapped the photo.. no recomposing, no al servo, no choosing alternate focus points. Just center the subject and shoot.

Can anyone tell me what is going wrong here? I didn't get one clear shot of the squirrel, or the bird.

Photo 1 (squirrel): https://flic.kr/p/2iNDbwc

Photo 1 Focus Point: https://flic.kr/p/2iNEVdP

Photo 2 (bird): https://flic.kr/p/2iNEUEV

Photo 2 Focus Point: https://flic.kr/p/2iNEVdo

If there's a better way to share photos here or if it's better to load right into this window, please let me know. I'm new here!

Thanks!

Re: Help with focus: Canon EOS R with EF 70-200mm f/2.8 IS II and adapter ring

rs-eos — Thu, 09 Apr 2020 21:36:47 GMT

The subjects are both very tiny in the frame. Are you sure the lens didn't focus on say the leaves in the tree around the bird or an object close to the squirrel?

Re: Help with focus: Canon EOS R with EF 70-200mm f/2.8 IS II and adapter ring

cdisimone — Thu, 09 Apr 2020 21:47:10 GMT

It is a possibility particularly with the bird but with the squirrel, the part of the grass that is in focus isn't anywhere near the squirrel. Even if I missed the squirrel and focused behind him, the in-focus grass would be further back, right?

The subjects are small, but they did fill my focus point and I would think I'd be able to get them in focus. But yes it's possible. But I took a bunch of the squirrel and a bunch of the bird and NONE were in focus. I would think if it caught a leaf or a part of the grass, at some point it might catch focus on the squirrel or the bird.

I don't know, is it possible anything else is happening?

Re: Help with focus: Canon EOS R with EF 70-200mm f/2.8 IS II and adapter ring

Waddizzle — Thu, 09 Apr 2020 21:49:19 GMT

@cdisimone wrote:

I had a lot of trouble focusing using the center focus point on the smallest setting.

I have had tack sharp images with the other EF lenses I have tried with the EOS R so I'm hoping it is something I am doing... and that there is nothing wrong with the lens.

My test shots were all handheld but on a pretty fast shutter speed, wide open and zoomed in at 200mm, and I was sitting and leaning my back against a wall so I should have been pretty still as well. I used single shot focus in the center and just snapped the photo.. no recomposing, no al servo, no choosing alternate focus points. Just center the subject and shoot.

Can anyone tell me what is going wrong here? I didn't get one clear shot of the squirrel, or the bird.

If there's a better way to share photos here or if it's better to load right into this window, please let me know. I'm new here!

Thanks!

I am not familiar with AF points in the EOS R. Does "focus point on the smallest setting" mean spot focus? Which shooting mode did you use? All of these could have been shot in Av, Tv, or M modes. I prefer M mode.

How fast of a shutter speed is "pretty fast shutter speed"? I would use at least 1/1600 with squirrels and birds. What was your ISO setting. I am pretty sure that body can easily handle ISO 3200.

How far away were you? Shooting wide open can create pretty narrow Depth-Of-Field at 200mm. But, at 30 feet, you still should have had well over a foot of DoF..

I think your unfamiliarity with the lens may have been a factor. The squirrel looks like camera shake, and the cardinal looks like focus hit a leaf, instead of the bird. In both cases, the shutter could have been faster.

Re: Help with focus: Canon EOS R with EF 70-200mm f/2.8 IS II and adapter ring

cdisimone — Thu, 09 Apr 2020 22:08:08 GMT

Hi, I was sitting pretty far from the squirrel but you can see the DOF in the grass behind the squirrel. I shot that at 1/2500sec, f3.2, ISO 2000. I had it on Tv for that one. The grass looks in focus so I don't know if it was camera shake.

I was a little closer to the bird than the squirrel. That was at 1/1250 sec, f2.8, ISO 1000, also Tv. More of a possibility here that I caught a leaf but... I just hope that's it!

On the EOS R when I say the "smallest setting" what I mean is, when you have it on spot focus, you can change the size of the point to a small point or a larger point. I had it on the smaller point. It's just a smaller focus box in the viewfinder. I would think with the smaller focus point I'd have enough precision to focus on both of these subjects, even though they are very small in the frame.

Re: Help with focus: Canon EOS R with EF 70-200mm f/2.8 IS II and adapter ring

ebiggs1 — Fri, 10 Apr 2020 13:58:01 GMT

This is simple, you missed your focus point.

"...at 1/1250 sec, f2.8, ISO 1000, also Tv."

This is all OK except for birds and other smaller critters I prefer Av. And, I would set aperture to f4 and ISO 1600 or even 3200 id needed. f2.8 is not going to give much of a margin of error in DOF if focus is missed by a tiny amount.

Curious why ISO 1000 instead of ISO 800 or ISO 1600? Seems an odd ISO number. BTW, shoot Raw with average WB. Keep in mind one of the things that you can't fix in post is missed focus.

Re: Help with focus: Canon EOS R with EF 70-200mm f/2.8 IS II and adapter ring

cdisimone — Fri, 10 Apr 2020 15:08:25 GMT

I might have had ISO on Auto for that shot... These were just practice shots to see how the lens performed on the mirrorless camera and I was mainly concerned with keeping the shutter speed high for movement (mine and theirs), which is why I used Tv this time and didn't dial in the other settings or shoot in RAW. I can try again today at F4 and see if I can get any in focus.

I just can't understand how I missed the focus point though (with the squirrel), unless the focus point I am seeing in the camera is not truly where the camera is focusing. I had the focus point right over the squirrel.. I didn't half press and recompose or anything like that. Just centered the squirrel and full shutter press. If you look at the part of the grass that is in focus, it's between the 2 wood columns, not anywhere near the squirrel. If I missed the squirrel a little in any direction, the bucket might be in focus, or the part of the grass that is a little further back that is just over the squirrel's head. But for me to focus on the part of the grass that is in focus, I'd have to be way down and left or way down and right from center, right? It doesn't make sense to me how this happened, unless I moved the camera that much forward mid-shutter press, which I don't think is what happened.

I agree with you on the bird, it's very likely the camera picked up one of those leaves. But I am still surprised that in all my test shots, the camera didn't pick up on the bird one time, even though I had the focus point right on it. What aperture would I need to be at to get a clear shot of a bird in leaves like that?

Out of curiosity, what does it matter if an ISO is an "odd" ISO number if it allows you to get the other settings where you want them?

Thank you for your help!

Re: Help with focus: Canon EOS R with EF 70-200mm f/2.8 IS II and adapter ring

cdisimone — Fri, 10 Apr 2020 15:16:03 GMT

It actually looks like maybe the camera focused on that root off to the right. But I was nowhere near that with my focus point. I wonder if the EOS R is doing something to "help" me focus on the correct subject and not fully listen to where I have my focus point locked. It does have features like facial recognition and eye-focus, but I had all of those things turned off.

Will test again later. I will go place something in that bucket to focus on so I can replicate the same shot. I can also try with my 5D Mark ii.

Is there any chance something is wrong with the lens? Or more likely something wrong with me?

Re: Help with focus: Canon EOS R with EF 70-200mm f/2.8 IS II and adapter ring

Waddizzle — Fri, 10 Apr 2020 15:34:20 GMT

@cdisimone wrote:
It actually looks like maybe the camera focused on that root off to the right. But I was nowhere near that with my focus point. I wonder if the EOS R is doing something to "help" me focus on the correct subject and not fully listen to where I have my focus point locked. It does have features like facial recognition and eye-focus, but I had all of those things turned off.

Will test again later. I will go place something in that bucket to focus on so I can replicate the same shot. I can also try with my 5D Mark ii.

Is there any chance something is wrong with the lens? Or more likely something wrong with me?

I almost never use Spot AF Focus handheld, only on a tripod, and even then only rarely. If I need to focus that accurately I will usually do it manually. Have you looked at the AF Point(s) in Canon's DPP software? It may give a tighter AF display in Spot AF Focus mode.

By definition, auto focus means the camera is helping you to focus. In One Shot mode, it lock focus with the AF point that detects the closest object to the camera. I assume that you know that already. There could be something wrong with the lens, but I would tend to think not, though. I would self examine what I am doing before I would blame the gear.

Check the lens settings, especially the focus distance setting and the IS Tracking Mode setting.

Re: Help with focus: Canon EOS R with EF 70-200mm f/2.8 IS II and adapter ring

ebiggs1 — Fri, 10 Apr 2020 16:11:01 GMT

"...what does it matter if an ISO is an "odd" ISO number..."

It doesn't. Just 1000 is not a natural stop. 800 and 1600 are. Also the fact something is in focus tells you there isn't anything wrong with the lens. It may need micro adjustment but it is focusing. The only other thing is you missed focus.

" I had the focus point right over the squirrel."

I think the problem here is the squirrel is so small. Let's set up a test. Do the very same settings and distance only put a larger subject in the shot. A teddy bear for example. Try to keep everything the same except for the subject. Also try different apertures to see which work best. I prefer to fix ISO. I don't use or like auto ISO. I also prefer Av over Tv almost all the time.

Use One shot and just the center focus point for this test. You can use jpg for this too. Most of the time a jpg will be sharper right out of the camera than Raw.

"These were just practice shots to see how the lens performed on the mirrorless camera ..."

And that is exactly what we are going to do! Don't be using any of the advanced stuff until this is done. Keep it simple and constant. You may find you like f4 or f5.6 better than f2.8.

Re: Help with focus: Canon EOS R with EF 70-200mm f/2.8 IS II and adapter ring

Waddizzle — Fri, 10 Apr 2020 16:49:09 GMT

"It may need micro adjustment but it is focusing. The only other thing is you missed focus.".

Mirrorless cameras do not have or even need AFMA. AFMA corrects the AF Sensor to match the Image Sensor. In.a mirrorless body, the AF Sensor and Image Sensor are one and the same.

------------------------

I think using Spot AF is and avenue for potential AF problems, too. I am not familiar with exactly how it works on a mirrorless camera. But, it is most likely an improvement over DSLRs.

Most DSLRs can only Spot AF with the center AF point, and is not uncommon for the "center" AF point on the AF sensor to not be in perfect alignment with the "center" AF point in the viewfinder. The actual AF point may be on the edge of the AF display point in the viewfinder.

In other words, the Spot AF point is not always centered in the AF point displayed in the viewfinder, or even in the display you may see in post. The critters are centered inside of the AF point display, but that does not mean they are aligned with the "spot" of the AF point. These subjects are too small for Spot AF..

Using the confventional AF mode does mean a bigger AF point, but you do have better odds of focusing on more distant objects, most especially when the distant object does not ciomplete fill the AF point display.

Re: Help with focus: Canon EOS R with EF 70-200mm f/2.8 IS II and adapter ring

Waddizzle — Fri, 10 Apr 2020 17:04:38 GMT

Check the lens switches. They can throw off focus, too. You do not want to use the full range if you are focusing on something more than 10 feet away.

Re: Help with focus: Canon EOS R with EF 70-200mm f/2.8 IS II and adapter ring

cdisimone — Fri, 10 Apr 2020 17:06:36 GMT

@Waddizzle wrote:

Have you looked at the AF Point(s) in Canon's DPP software? It may give a tighter AF display in Spot AF Focus mode.

Check the lens settings, especially the focus distance setting and the IS Tracking Mode setting.

I don't have Canon's DPP software on my computer but I can install it and try. I can see the spot on the camera preview, and I also have a Lightroom Plugin that shows the spot (uploaded that to flickr in original post).

I had the lens on the further focusing distance, IS on, Mode 1.

Re: Help with focus: Canon EOS R with EF 70-200mm f/2.8 IS II and adapter ring

cdisimone — Fri, 10 Apr 2020 17:12:34 GMT

@ebiggs1 wrote:

I think the problem here is the squirrel is so small. Let's set up a test. Do the very same settings and distance only put a larger subject in the shot. A teddy bear for example. Try to keep everything the same except for the subject. Also try different apertures to see which work best. I prefer to fix ISO. I don't use or like auto ISO. I also prefer Av over Tv almost all the time.
Use One shot and just the center focus point for this test. You can use jpg for this too. Most of the time a jpg will be sharper right out of the camera than Raw.

I actually did just that prior to seeing your post! I stuck a stuffed animal in the pot. I believe I had it on manual settings this time for those shots, and I did play around with using focus points in the center but also off to the sides. I also walked up closer and tried the shot at 100mm and closer still at 70mm, as well as some different apertures from the far distance. For the original far shot, I didn't pull out my tripod but I did rest the camera on a table and used it on timer so I could make sure there was no camera shake.

I don't have time to upload the shots right now but I will later and see what happened. Is flickr the preferred way of sharing photos here or something else?

Re: Help with focus: Canon EOS R with EF 70-200mm f/2.8 IS II and adapter ring

cdisimone — Fri, 10 Apr 2020 17:15:07 GMT

@Waddizzle wrote:

Using the confventional AF mode does mean a bigger AF point, but you do have better odds of focusing on more distant objects, most especially when the distant object does not ciomplete fill the AF point display.

Can you explain what you mean by "conventional AF mode"?

Re: Help with focus: Canon EOS R with EF 70-200mm f/2.8 IS II and adapter ring

Waddizzle — Fri, 10 Apr 2020 17:18:51 GMT

You can upload files directly to the forum, but there is 5MP limit. In practice, the working limit is more like 4.5MP, probably because of some sort of overhead.

I strongly suggest that you use a "normal" point, instead of whatever type of Spot AF the EOS R uses. Again check your lens switches, most especially the distance switch. It can make a world of difference.

Re: Help with focus: Canon EOS R with EF 70-200mm f/2.8 IS II and adapter ring

Waddizzle — Fri, 10 Apr 2020 17:31:16 GMT

@cdisimone wrote:
@Waddizzle wrote:

Using the confventional AF mode does mean a bigger AF point, but you do have better odds of focusing on more distant objects, most especially when the distant object does not ciomplete fill the AF point display.
Can you explain what you mean by "conventional AF mode"?

"I had a lot of trouble focusing using the center focus point on the smallest setting."

I have no idea what "smallest setting" means, either. Doesn't your 5D have Spot AF in the center AF point? I am saying do not use whatever equivalent to Spot AF in a DSLR that the EOS R uses.

Spot AF does not work well with small or distant subjects, mainly because the focus spot is not always where you might think it is. The AF point display in the viewfinder should be regarded as an approximation of where the AF points are located.

Re: Help with focus: Canon EOS R with EF 70-200mm f/2.8 IS II and adapter ring

cdisimone — Fri, 10 Apr 2020 18:25:35 GMT

@Waddizzle wrote:

I have no idea what "smallest setting" means, either. Doesn't your 5D have Spot AF in the center AF point? I am saying do not use whatever equivalent to Spot AF in a DSLR that the EOS R uses.

Spot AF does not work well with small or distant subjects, mainly because the focus spot is not always where you might think it is. The AF point display in the viewfinder should be regarded as an approximation of where the AF points are located.

Yes, both of those cameras have Spot AF and it mainly works the same way. On the EOS R it's called 1-point AF, and unlike the 5D where you can see the black outline of all the available AF points in the viewfinder, and the one you want turns red, on the EOS R, you don't see those black outlines, and you can move the focus point anywhere on the entire screen rather than being limited to those set number of focus points like on the 5D.

What I meant by "smallest setting" is that you can change the size of the focus point square in the 1-point AF mode on the EOS from "normal" to "small" and I had it on small. The size of the box is smaller allowing for a more precise focus point. Whether or not it's more accurate on a mirrorless compared with a DLSR, I do not know... But it would be good to know how accurate it really is!

Thinking of the spot AF as an approximation helps me understand what might be happening but I always thought the whole purpose of spot AF was so that you could pinpoint exactly where you want to focus. So in my situation, (not that I am always taking pictures of faraway squirrels in the backyard but... for learning purposes...) if you wouldn't use spot AF, would you just use manual focus instead? I don't know that I'd be able to see in the viewfinder if something is in focus that small and far away.

Re: Help with focus: Canon EOS R with EF 70-200mm f/2.8 IS II and adapter ring

cdisimone — Fri, 10 Apr 2020 18:32:19 GMT

@Waddizzle wrote:

I strongly suggest that you use a "normal" point, instead of whatever type of Spot AF the EOS R uses. Again check your lens switches, most especially the distance switch. It can make a world of difference.

Just read this again... Maybe there is confusion on my part between "normal" AF point and "spot" AF point. I am using them interchangeably and maybe they aren't, but on both of my cameras, to my knowledge, there is no difference between a "normal" AF point and a "spot" AF point (only "spot" metering point but that's exposure and we're not talking about that!)

There is no way to toggle between using a single "normal" focus point (which looks like a square) to using something that looks like a "spot".. they're all squares and what it sounds like you're referring to as "normal" AF.

Maybe I should consult the manual!

Re: Help with focus: Canon EOS R with EF 70-200mm f/2.8 IS II and adapter ring

cdisimone — Fri, 10 Apr 2020 18:48:14 GMT

@Waddizzle wrote:

I strongly suggest that you use a "normal" point, instead of whatever type of Spot AF the EOS R uses. Again check your lens switches, most especially the distance switch. It can make a world of difference.

OK so my mistake, I never knew spot AF was a separate thing because neither of my 2 cameras have it (5D Mark ii and EOS R). I googled and see that the Mark iii has that, and it's like a spot within the the center focus point. I don't have that. When I was saying spot AF, I meant "single point" AF.

Also, I think I already replied to this somewhere else, but the switches were on the 2.8m-infinity setting, IS On, Mode 1. I think that's what I would want in this situation.

Thanks for your feedback.