topic Re: What Lens to Use for HS Wrestling Photos - EOS R7 in EF & RF Lenses

What Lens to Use for HS Wrestling Photos - EOS R7

Jhatfield — Fri, 06 Jan 2023 14:11:06 GMT

Hello,

I am very much a newbie to photography. I have an EOS R7 that came with the RF-S 18-150mm f/3.5-6.3 IS STM. I got a camera solely to take photos of high school wrestlers (my husband is the coach).

When taking photos of fast action wrestlers in a gym, I'm finding out with this lens the aperture is not low enough to keep my photos bright. I have to increase my ISO to a very high level, which is obviously not ideal for noise. I've tried the auto settings just to see what the photos come out at, and while the photo looks better, the shutter speed is too slow to capture the action, those or similar settings wouldn't work for what I'm doing.

What type of lens would be best for keeping my aperture low (I don't think this lens gets as low as I need), so I don't need to increase my ISO, while maintaining fast shutter speeds? I need the light. 🙂

I have friends with DSLRs that shoot wrestling photos that have f/2.8 70-200 lenses, however the lens world is confusing to me, I am not confident I understand what the lens details mean. Some are older, some newer. I know they make mount converters but it seems a mirrorless lens would lend to better quality when using a mirrorless camera?

I know nothing about photoshop or other similar software, I'm not opposed to this, but when I take hundreds of photos at a tournament, I don't have time to edit this many photos if it's for lighting. Is it too lofty to think I just want the photos to come out decent right out of the camera? 🙂

Again, please excuse my newness and naivety. I just need help and I live in a rural area where there little to no photography resources around -stores, courses, etc., (at least in the sense of a live person to ask questions to).

Thank you,

Jody

Re: What Lens to Use for HS Wrestling Photos - EOS R7

deebatman316 — Fri, 06 Jan 2023 22:25:00 GMT

Hell Jhatfield welcome to the forums. If your looking for lenses for your camera. Make sure they have the pre-fix RF or RF-S these lenses will natively mount to your camera. If you want to use older EF or EF-S lenses you will need the EF/EF-S to RF Mount adapter. One thing to note is that all 70-200mm lenses are designed for Full Frame cameras. When the lens is used on an APS-C camera the lens would have an Angle of View of 112-320mm when compared to Full Frame. You'll need the RF 70-200mm F/2.8L IS USM lens. Since your new to photography I recommend that you learn the exposure triangle. You can Click Here for your camera manual. I also recommend that you watch Canon's EOS 101 series of videos on YouTube. As for settings I recommend that you use Av Mode with the aperture set to F/2.8, drive mode set to continuous high, with Auto ISO set with upper and lower limits. Also one thing to keep in mind is that Flash Photography IS Prohibited during sporting events.

-Demetrius

EF 16-35mm F/2.8L III USM, EF 24-70mm F/2.8L II USM, EF 28-135mm F/3.5-5.6 IS USM (Retired), EF 50 F/1.8 STM, EF 85mm F/1.8 USM & EF 70-200mm F/2.8L IS III USM

EOS 40D (Retired) & 5D Mark IV

430EX III-RT, 470EX-AI & 600EX II-RT

Re: What Lens to Use for HS Wrestling Photos - EOS R7

rs-eos — Fri, 06 Jan 2023 22:56:58 GMT

If you need to use higher shutter speeds and keep ISO as low as possible, there are only two things you can do.

First is to add lighting. This may not be possible (i.e. not allowed).

Second is to use lenses with wider apertures. e.g. an RF 50mm f/1.2 would let in at least 8 times the amount of light as the 18-150 mm (potentially over 20 times the light if at the 150mm range since the minimum aperture closes down at that end of things). This would translate to between 3 and almost 5 stops better light gathering. Thus, ISO could be reduced. A 3-stop reduction would say reduce from ISO 12800 down to ISO 1600.

There are cons though in using such a wide aperture:

The widest apertures are available on prime lenses, so you won't be able to zoom at all. Not a problem though if you're finding that you keep your zoom lens around the same zoom setting all the time.
The depth of field will be quite narrow. So if you're trying to get multiple subjects in focus, that's typically not possible. Though if you're at a decent distance away from your subjects, the depth of field will not be too narrow.

Re: What Lens to Use for HS Wrestling Photos - EOS R7

shadowsports — Sat, 07 Jan 2023 05:09:16 GMT

Hi Jody,

Welcome. There is a great deal to cover. You do have a bit of research and reading a head of you.

Since you have a mirrorless body, lets start there. There are body's with 2 types of sensors. Full frame and APS-C. A full frame sensor is larger (in diameter) than a APS-C sensor. Each has its strengths depending on the use case.

Lenses. While many standards exist, the lenses designed specifically for your R7 (APS-C) body are RF-S and RF. The RF designation is a lens mount standard (full frame) larger sensor format. RF-S has the same lens mount designation but is designed specifically for the smaller diameter sensor in your APS-C body. It has a smaller image circle. Its possible to use RF-S lenses on a full frame, but it might not be as desirable since the image format it presents to the sensor is smaller and will not utilize the full size of the sensor (edge to edge). An RF-S lens is designed specifically for the smaller diameter sensor in an APS-C body and presents a full size image to the smaller diameter image sensor.

On the other hand an RF lens for a full frame body presents an image to the sensor's full width and height. This is also why you can use a RF (full frame) lens on a APS-C body. What's different. Although a larger image is being presented to the (APS-C) sensor, it has a smaller diameter and thus the (FOV) field of view is more narrow in appearance. Think of it like this. You are projecting an image on your 10ft x10ft screen, but the image displays outside of the screens edges. This is what's known as crop. The full frame lens is presenting an image much bigger than the size of the sensor. The (FL) focal length of the lens does not change. So 50mm is 50mm, but the (FOV) field of view on a body with a full frame sensor will be wider than using the same lens on a APS-C (smaller sensor) body. When you mount a full frame RF lens on a APS-C body, the FOV changes. So you multiply the (FL) focal length by 1.6x.

Example, a full frame 50mm lens on your APS-C camera will yield the equivalent FOV (50x1.6) = of 80mm. So the image that is captured depends on the lens design and size of the image sensor.

35mm, 50mm, 70~200mm is referred to as (FL) focal length. Lenses with a single number are called primes (fixed focal length). Lenses that have a range are called zooms. Each has different uses. You might have to move closer or farther from your subject with a fixed focal length lens. Walk closer, step backwards.

A zoom allows you to be stationary and change the focal length simply by zooming the lens in or out. The second designation is aperture (expressed as) f/x.x. Your RF-S 18-150mm f/3.5-6.3. Is a wide angle zoom. Its designed specifically for the smaller APS-C sensor in your R7. It has an adjustable FL of 18~150mm and a variable aperture f/3.5~6.3. Lets look at aperture. Prime lens example. 50mm f/1.8. Aperture is f/1.8 when the lens is "wide open". Variable aperture example (your lens) 18-150mm f/3.5-6.3. At 18mm the lens aperture is f/3.5 (wide open). As you zoom the minimum aperture starts to vary or decrease. At 150mm the largest aperture the lens is capable of is f/6.3. This affects the (exposure) amount of light that will be presented to the sensor when the image is captured. Shutter speed is the amount of time light is allowed to hit the sensor. This is part of the exposure triangle. Shutter speed, ISO and aperture. (mentioned above)

This is the beginning of your journey.

You have 2 options from a "best lens" for HS wrestling standpoint. Since every gym is different, lighting and distance to your subjects is going to vary. You might have a little more freedom being the coach's wife. Since you will be shooting indoors 99% of the time, I would recommend a lens with a constant F/2.8 or lower minimum aperture. If you are always able to be "close" a prime could work. I however prefer a zoom so I can bring the action to me "in or out" without having to move. A tripod wouldn't be a bad idea either. Ultimately your budget will also need to be considered.

Renting a lens or 2 before purchase is a great way to ensure the lens or lenses you chose will work best for your shooting situations. lensrentals dot com is great for this. Be sure to check out Canon's new and refurbished lens options. Refurbished lenses purchased directly from Canon come with the same 1 yr warranty as new gear and you can save a bundle. Please do not buy gear or kits from Amazon or non Canon authorized dealers. Stick with Canon, B&H, Adorama, lens rentals, etc. If in doubt, just ask. All of the users here are extremely knowledgeable and friendly. Canon has a great sales team who are happy to answer questions as well. The best way to learn is practice. Keep a little notepad handy. Its helpful to refer back to when reviewing your photos. The R7 is a nice little camera. I hope you enjoy it.

Others here will have great advice for you also.

Re: What Lens to Use for HS Wrestling Photos - EOS R7

jaewoosong — Sat, 07 Jan 2023 08:23:00 GMT

I also just started shooting HS wresting for my son's events. Others have given great suggestions but before you buy a new lens, try shooting in Tv mode with it set to 1/250. For fast movements like wresting, auto or AV mode won't have fast enough shutter speed to freeze the action. 1/250 in Tv mode has worked for me (albeit with R5 and 70-200/2.8 lens) but you can try slightly slower as well (like 1/160). In Tv mode, your aperture and ISO should be set to auto so they adjust accordingly. Your camera will shoot as wide as possible so the only real variable that will change frequently is the ISO. That said, newer cameras like the R7 does provide relatively clean images at higher ISOs compared to older cameras. To compensate for noise, you can increase the high ISO noise reduction to HIGH. Since you are the coach's wife, you may also try to stay closer to the mat so you stay at the wider range of the lens (and lower aperture) vs the long end (with higher aperture) so the ISO doesn't go too high.

Re: What Lens to Use for HS Wrestling Photos - EOS R7

wq9nsc — Sat, 07 Jan 2023 18:11:15 GMT

Jody,

Shooting wrestling is definitely not my sport, I have shot a lot of sports but a grand total of one wrestling match as a favor to one of the football players who was in his last match as a graduating senior.

You are correct that with typical HS lighting, you need a wide aperture lens (the lower the f number the wider the aperture and the more suitable it is for low light). I shot that match using prime (single focus length lens) primarily 135mm f2 and 200mm f2 glass but a 70-200 f2.8 lens is only one stop slower and will work well with reasonable lighting.

Some basic rules I use for all my sports photography:

1. Always shoot in RAW rather than JPG. This allows you do do significant noise reduction in post and also correct for white balance and many other issues. The free DPP software that comes as part of buying Canon bodies does a very good job and I seldom use Adobe creative suite for sports photos.

2. You can clean up noise in post but motion blur is forever so for typically dark HS sports, I set exposure control to manual with the aperture wide open, the shutter speed fixed fast enough to avoid significant motion blur, and let ISO float by setting it to the auto position because lighting is going to vary across the typical gym. I started at 1/500 for wrestling but midway through bumped to 1/640 which was a good compromise setting. 1/500 was on the edge of creating too much blur.

3. You placement is critical in getting photos and you have the advantage of a good source of expert advice from the coach 🙂 Shooting wrestling was a learning curve for me and I was still figuring out best placement when the meet ended. My 70-200 f2.8 is my most used sports lens because it is very versatile and has a wide enough aperture with current camera bodies to provide noise free sports images under any reasonable lighting. The 18-150 that came with your camera is going to be very limiting given its narrower aperture and although I don't have direct experience with that lens, in general a lens that has a very wide focal length range tends to not perform as well in terms of image quality as a similar design with a narrower range of available focal length.

This was my first and probably (hopefully) last attempt at shooting HS wrestling 🙂

https://rodgersingley.smugmug.com/Senior-Night-Wrestling/n-FhFzWz

Rodger

Re: What Lens to Use for HS Wrestling Photos - EOS R7

ebiggs1 — Tue, 10 Jan 2023 15:15:43 GMT

Rodger's advice is once again spot on. Some of the rest above is not because we don't know from where you will be shooting unless I missed it. You can't recommend a lens until you know that. Obliviously the closer you can be the shorter FL lens you will need. If you are restricted to the bleachers on the other hand a much longer FL will be required.

IMHO this is totally incorrect, "try shooting in Tv mode with it set to 1/250, but as long as he says "try" it, I guess its OK to try. When you shoot any sporting event it is best to do what the pros do. The favored settings might be Av mode. auto ISO and Raw. You will select an aperture near the most wide open of your lens, let's say f2.8. You will set an ISO limit at both the low end and high end. Maybe 100 to 6400. Of course never ever use jpg always use Raw. These are suggestions and may need to be tweaked one way or the other.

You need to post edit. Period! No getting around it if you want the best possible photos. Canon offers you DPP4 for free. You can d/l it from the Canon support site. There are others such as Photoshop Elements which is very reasonably priced for all that it can do. You may ask what about the other settings in my camera like white balance or picture style, etc. don't concern yourself with any of the other settings because shooting Raw you set all that in post as you edit your shots. Raw only records exposure and IQ nothing else. However you editor DPP4 or PSE, etc., will use those settings to create you a viewable image so you may want to pay some attention to them.100% changeable and editable by you in post.

Re: What Lens to Use for HS Wrestling Photos - EOS R7

ebiggs1 — Mon, 09 Jan 2023 15:56:46 GMT

"Second is to use lenses with wider apertures. e.g. an RF 50mm f/1.2 ..."

Again like I said above we don't know where you will be shooting from. But in your case a fixed FL lens, like a prime lens, is probably not a good choice. I doubt you will be using its available f1.2 aperture either unless you can get very close to the action. Like a few feet or so. At this point it makes a 70-200mm f2.8 a good candidate.

Rick's suggestions are also spot on.

Re: What Lens to Use for HS Wrestling Photos - EOS R7

Jhatfield — Tue, 10 Jan 2023 13:59:13 GMT

Thank you, this is very helpful. With that angle of view due to the APS-C, how far back does that mean I need to be from the action? I usually sit on the edge of the mat. I don't think with my current lens my aperture will go that low in the Av Mode, I will definitely try these settings, thank you!

Re: What Lens to Use for HS Wrestling Photos - EOS R7

Jhatfield — Tue, 10 Jan 2023 14:03:32 GMT

Thank you so much. Why are they called "prime" lenses? I don't think I have a good grasp on how close or far 50mm looks like with my inexperience. I appreciate you telling me the cons of wide aperture, I was wondering this. It may require me to sit further away, but with a zoom that is not an issue, and my photos will be brighter with less noise. I suppose a steady hand will be important in that case.

Re: What Lens to Use for HS Wrestling Photos - EOS R7

Jhatfield — Tue, 10 Jan 2023 14:16:00 GMT

Thank you, I really appreciate the information. That's a lot to take in, but I'm slowly learning! I have no idea why they started making two different cameras (full and crop) but that's a question for another day - and then to make separate lenses that are interchangeable but do different things on each - that's why it's so confusing to figure out what's best for me! 🙂 I appreciate now knowing that the RF-S is designed for the cropped camera, I did not know that. I'm all about buying native lenses, just a little nervous that there isn't as much to choose from yet compared to the cameras that have been around longer. Without trialing it myself, I'm agreeing with your statement about the zoom over the fixed, although getting down to the lower aperture on a fixed lens is an appealing thought. I suppose I could trial not zooming during matches and seeing what I think of that. They move around so much on the mat, sometimes it's been nice to zoom in to try to capture the face expression better, though. I hadn't thought much of the tripod because I don't see many photographers there with them, but I can see how that could really save your arms by the end of the day. Thank you for the information about lens rental. I may look into that, especially for state wrestling if I take photos there. And nice to know that information about refurbished lenses through canon - I hadn't realized that about the warranty, so that is good to know. One thing you mentioned that I hadn't even thought of was when zooming, the aperture was wide open at the 18mm and goes up from there - I noticed that I couldn't lower my aperture at times even though my lens offered that, but hadn't yet figured out the correlation. I know I can probably google all these things, but when I'm out at an event taking photos, I get caught up in what's going on right then, and don't think of those inquiries later on when I have time to look into them. Thank you so much for the info!

Re: What Lens to Use for HS Wrestling Photos - EOS R7

Jhatfield — Tue, 10 Jan 2023 14:20:45 GMT

Thank you so much for the information. Ok, I may be naive, but I don't think I have a TV mode setting. Maybe I do and just don't know which one it is, but I don't see the same icon that others have for TV mode. The other girl that takes photos with me does have this on her Canon, which is a different model than mine. I do find that with the lower shutter speeds I catch a lot of blur (they move so fast!). I appreciate your comments on increasing the ISO noise reduction to high - I am going to look into this. I hadn't realized that how much I was zooming lowered my aperture - I just mentioned this in the post up above. That is very helpful information and may explain why so many others have the larger zooms during meets than what my lens offers. Thank you!

Re: What Lens to Use for HS Wrestling Photos - EOS R7

Jhatfield — Tue, 10 Jan 2023 14:36:45 GMT

Thank you so much for the information. So you used two prime lenses. I have no idea why they are called prime? To note they do not zoom? Why did you choose those lenses to use? I only have a tiny bit of experience with the one lens I own, so maybe it just makes more sense when you have multiple lenses that you just know what you like. I have been shooting in jpeg, only because I have no idea how do do anything with the raw photo. I was saving them in both formats, but then just went to JPEG. Maybe that's a mistake and I should just be keeping the raw version anyway, but I have no idea how to edit photos, or at least haven't taken the time to do so. I like your comment about you cannot clean up blur, that really has resonated with me. As far as placement, I'm learning! My husband is the expert in wrestling, (I'm just around it all the time so it is slowly making sense to me through some form of osmosis, I think) 🙂 and trying to figure out the camera alone has me all sorts of distracted while taking photos when the action happens so fast. It's a learning curve for sure. Thank you for posting your photos, I enjoyed looking at them and am very much impressed with your abilities. Are you in IL? I am right over here in Iowa. I appreciate your lense recommendation, I want to make sure I'm on the right track. This is a dumb question, but are there multiple types of the Canon 70-200 f2.8 that fit my camera, (similar models for each year they release, some just a little newer/possibly tweaked with updates - like a new Toyota Camry is released every year for example, but they are all Camrys, however some have been upgraded in time), or is it like, 'here is the Canon 70-200 f2.8 lens you use for this camera, if you don't have this exact lens it's possible an adapter is available.' So if you have a 70-200 f2.8, it is the exact same lens, manufactured the exact same every year, no changes. Does that question make sense? Thanks again.

Re: What Lens to Use for HS Wrestling Photos - EOS R7

Jhatfield — Tue, 10 Jan 2023 14:56:47 GMT

Thank you so much for your advice, much appreciated! Well, I can shoot from anywhere except in the wrestling circle - 😂. No seriously, I'm lucky because I can sit up to 5 foot away from the circle, so close enough I have to watch out that I don't get run into at times by the wrestlers. I appreciate your recommended settings. As I mentioned in a comment above, I have been shooting jpeg only because I haven't gotten into editing photos yet, but I also have the option to shoot both simultaneously so I should probably at least go that route so I have them. I completely agree that editing would greatly benefit my photos and I'd like to get to the point I'm learning to do that. I'm not opposed to paying for something like photoshop, as long as I know I'm going to have time to learn editing. Do you have a preference in software you use? I'm guessing since Canon is free it may be more limited in offerings, but obviously it's better than what I have now, which is nothing. 🙂 I need to just get in at least learn how to edit the lighting at a minimum. I've only shot two tournaments so I feel I'm just trying to figure out the camera at this point. Not going to lie, the thought of editing gives me a little heartburn because I'm afraid I'll get in there and there will be these unlimited choices on how to tweak the photo - I'm pretty OCD and this is why I wouldn't make a good artist. (Ironically, something both my brothers do for a living.) But again, I completely agree that editing is more than worth the time and would love to learn. I'm sure once I start, I'll think 'why didn't I start sooner, this is more user friendly than I thought it would be.'

Re: What Lens to Use for HS Wrestling Photos - EOS R7

Jhatfield — Tue, 10 Jan 2023 15:02:58 GMT

Thank you again. The little I do know about lenses, I agree in that I'm leary on a fixed lens choice. (I'd hate to make that investment and then regret it, for the purposes of photographing wrestling, anyhow.) Even if I'm close, the wrestlers move around a lot in the circle, and sometimes the option of zooming in to get a good face shot is appealing. People I've talking to taking photos at wrestling meets seems to have a zoom lens, not a fixed lens. I don't think a fixed lens is wrong, but might limit me more in what I'm trying to capture. I really appreciate your recommendations.

Re: What Lens to Use for HS Wrestling Photos - EOS R7

ebiggs1 — Tue, 10 Jan 2023 15:31:42 GMT

OK, kido, here's the scoop on editing. Canon's DPP4 is no lightweight. It can do almost anything that a photographer needs to do. It can't do the very much more intense and involved edits like multiple layers and masks. etc., like Photoshop, the industry standard, can. Editing is as difficult or as easy as you want it. You already u/l the photos to your computer, correct? Well simply let DPP4 do that for you. If you like what you see you are done. That's all. Using Raw can be that simple! However, if you see that a certain crop would make the shot a lot better just do that. Again done. Of course there can be serious edits that you can take as far as you want, Like color balance, exposure, sharpening, and such and such.

When you save the photo from DPP4 you can tell it what you need. Like you want to make a full beautiful print or email it or a FB picture, etc. Another beauty of Raw is if you do tons of edits and come to the conclusion you don't like what you've done its OK. Raw does not ever change. You never alter the original Raw file. This is not true with jpg as it destroys the original each time you do any edit, even tiny edits, or even just simply save it.

You see there is no good reason or even a bad reason to use jpg. Not even as a second save on you camera.

Re: What Lens to Use for HS Wrestling Photos - EOS R7

ebiggs1 — Tue, 10 Jan 2023 15:49:18 GMT

" I can shoot from anywhere except in the wrestling circle"

That is super! My suggestion for best lens is the RF 24-70mm f2.8L Repeating the best starting settings, Av mode. You will set the lens to f2.8 but try f4, also. Set Auto ISO and set the lower and upper limits again I suspect 100 to 6400 should work for most gyms. But again these are stating points and may need adjusting. Use One Shot and not Ai-servo or any other auto AF mode. I would use just the center focus point and turn the others off. And of course shoot Raw. You don't need jpg but if it make you feel warm and fuzzy no foul no harm done.

The two things that editing cannot do or is very difficult to do is focus and blur. You need to nail these. You will also want to use the Minimum Shutter Speed for ISO Auto setting. Again experiment with this. Perhaps 1/250 to 1/4000.

Let me know how it goes, OK?

Re: What Lens to Use for HS Wrestling Photos - EOS R7

Jhatfield — Tue, 10 Jan 2023 15:53:17 GMT

Thank you so much! Dumb question, but then does the DPP4 allow you to save the photo in jpeg once done editing? I was thinking that you can't use the raw format to upload photos to Facebook, etc, so just trying to figure out how to get the more-user friendly file once done with editing?

Re: What Lens to Use for HS Wrestling Photos - EOS R7

Jhatfield — Tue, 10 Jan 2023 16:00:56 GMT

Thank you for the advice, very much appreciated! I agree that I need to nail the photo clarity, something I know I'm struggling with right now. Question, why do you think most people use the 70-200 that I've encountered, when they are not much farther away than I am? What would you think the differences in the photo would be between the 70-200 and 24-70 assuming you get the lighting you want? The other girl that takes photos with me actually uses a 100-400, sitting not much further away.

Re: What Lens to Use for HS Wrestling Photos - EOS R7

ebiggs1 — Tue, 10 Jan 2023 16:20:19 GMT

Perhaps you missed this, "When you save the photo from DPP4 you can tell it what you need. Like you want to make a full beautiful print or email it or a FB picture, etc." Further you can specify if you just want a jpg and how much quality you want in the jpg. A Raw file is not viewable by anybody or anything. It is simply ones and zeros. It has to be converted and that is what DPP4 or Lightroom or Photoshop does when you u/l to your computer. It is seamless and you do not even know it happens. Actually no different than you looking at you LCD scree on your R7.