topic Re: Newbie looking for body and lens recommendations to use in motorsports/automotive shoots in EF & RF Lenses

Newbie looking for body and lens recommendations to use in motorsports/automotive shoots

hoosierdaddy — Mon, 11 Sep 2017 17:19:24 GMT

Hello all! New to the Canon Community. I've been a hobbyist for a few years with prior experience starting with the A2 and Elan film bodies. In addition to the film bodies I also have a Rebel XT (circa 2003-2005). I took some time away from Canon, and have been relying on my smartphone's (8MP) camera for the last several years. I write an automotive lifestyle blog, travel for motorsports as well as club events, and go any other car event close to me. Looking to get more serious about my product/results, and would like to hear recommendations for a body, and the 1-2 must have lenses as well as any other gear that would be useful for car shoots and motorsports. I still have four lenses: 28-105mm, 85mm, 100mm macro, and 75-300mm ultrasonic lenses from my film days. My thought for the first lens is the 24-70mm II f/2.8 USM for the utility role. Any advice would be most appreciated, and thanks in advance

Re: Newbie looking for body and lens recommendations to use in motorsports/automotive shoots

cicopo — Mon, 11 Sep 2017 18:20:24 GMT

When talking motorsports how close will you be usually & how fast are the vehicles? Do you have a budget & are you looking for a high FPS rate? Static photos don't require the same gear fast moving vehicles might but a better body can do static as well as high speed stuff.

Re: Newbie looking for body and lens recommendations to use in motorsports/automotive shoots

hoosierdaddy — Mon, 11 Sep 2017 18:43:17 GMT

Currently going to track days, autocross events, and club trials so the speeds are between 40-100mph. I have access for those tracks/venues. I'd like to ensure growth within the system so I'm able to shoot the speeds of IMSA or IndyCar in 1-2 years. Went to the 12 Hours of Sebring this year, and was really disappointed with my results. The budget is fixed at $2.5K or less for the body. No idea about the lenses, but if I were to use all $2.5K on the body I could only spring for $1K on a lens to start off with. Not sure what the useful life of a body is anymore, and was always of the understanding it's better to buy the best glass than spend all on a body. Not sure if that's true anymore. I'd like fast write ability, full frame (unless it doesn't matter), solid processors, and dual card slots. That's what I think I need. Additionally would like the body/lens combo to be versatile enough for track shots, pit/garage shots, and general car shoots until I can spring for a long telephoto lens. I just can spring for too much yet, just a solid kit to get started with a recommended shopping list of lenses to add as I can afford it.

Re: Newbie looking for body and lens recommendations to use in motorsports/automotive shoots

cicopo — Mon, 11 Sep 2017 20:19:16 GMT

Obviously your in the US (I'm in Canada) where prices are lower PLUS you have Canon Refurbs available & they should be considered . Although it may be due for a replacement soon the 7D2 is up to the job & will still do it for some time to come. Not quite sure what to recommend for that super versatile lens because the one I use doesn't fit the budget, even as a used purchase. My flight line lens is the 28-300 L IS & it would do motorsports well too but it's HEAVY too. This is what I shoot these days but I have a background in the Muscle Car restoration field & drag racing, car shows etc. See.

http://community.usa.canon.com/t5/Share-Your-Photos/How-I-spend-most-summer-weekends-R-C-event-photos/m-p/218398#M1060

The 2 bodies I rely on are the 1D mark 4 and 7D mark 2 & both are very worthy. I do not miss shots that I feel are because of my gear. When I miss it's because I couldn't keep it in the viewfider & be smooth as I shot.

Re: Newbie looking for body and lens recommendations to use in motorsports/automotive shoots

hoosierdaddy — Mon, 11 Sep 2017 20:43:57 GMT

Thanks for the excellent recommendation on the camera bodies, I appreciate it! And I am in the US. I figured one lens would just be a start, and I'm open to renting those long telephoto lenses for races or specific use. I'd been looking at the 5D MK III and 7D MKII. I like the fact that both can also do HD video. I'll check out your link. I grew up going to demo derbies, figure eights, and the drag strip. Nice to connect with another gear head on here!

Re: Newbie looking for body and lens recommendations to use in motorsports/automotive shoots

TCampbell — Tue, 12 Sep 2017 00:27:43 GMT

The pecking order for Canon bodies suitable to fast action photography are:

1. Canon 1D X Mark II (Canon's flagship camera - also it's a full-frame camera) - but out of your price range.

2. Canon 7D Mark II (Canon's top-performing DSLR with an APS-C size (crop-frame) sensor.

3. Canon 5D Mark IV (full frame, advanced focus system, and fairly fast with an 8 FPS burst shooting speed and very large internal buffer) - but out of your price range.

4. Canon 5D Mark III (full frame, fairly advanced focus system, and 7 FPS burst shooting speed with a rather larger (but not as big as the Mark IV) internal memory buffer) - not sure if you could get one in your price range... maybe a used copy.

5. Canon 80D (Canon's current top mid-tier DSLR - fairly advanced focus system and just below a 7 FPS burst shooting speed.)

6. Canon 77D (basically a high end Rebel body)

7. Canon T7i (latest entry-level body but they have substantially improved the focus system as compared to their other entry-level bodies).

Based on your needs, I would probably go for the 7D Mark II body.

I also noticed you don't really have any lens that qualifies as "wide" for your camera body. A "normal" angle of view (one that seems neither wide angle or narrow angle) is one where the focal length matches the diagonal measure of your camera sensor (roughly 28mm). Since 28mm is your widest focal length possible, and that's merely a "normal" angle of view I'd probably be seeking a moderately wide angle lens (something that can drop down to the 16-18mm range on the low end. The 17-40mm is a low-priced option that could do this. There are also the 16-35mm options such as the 16-35mm f/4. On APS-C camera bodies there is are other options as well such as the 10-18, 10-22, and 17-55mm lenses. There is also an 11-24mm but it's not cheap (it's out of your budget even if you skip the camera body and just buy the one lens.)

The wide angle of view isn't just "wide" it also stretches the sense of depth. Interiors seem larger and more spacious at wide angles. The long side of the car body will seem even longer. Etc.

Re: Newbie looking for body and lens recommendations to use in motorsports/automotive shoots

ScottyP — Tue, 12 Sep 2017 11:54:59 GMT

For this use I'd go with a good auto focusing crop body, either the 7d2 or the 80d. You can benefit from the 1.6x free telephoto effect of the FOV crop and you won't much miss any loss in low light IQ and by not going full frame you'll save money you can apply towards lenses.

For lenses I'd consider a wide angle for crop bodies like a 10-22 or 10-20, etc, by Canon or maybe Sigma plus a moderate telephoto. Hard to go wrong with an excellent 70-200 f/2.8 IS MK2 and with the crop effect you get the FOV of a 320mm lens.

If if you don't need the super wide lens or if you dont want to have that gap between 22mm and 70mm you could get the EF-s 17-55 f/2.8 instead of the wide angle lens. That might be better actually.

Re: Newbie looking for body and lens recommendations to use in motorsports/automotive shoots

cicopo — Tue, 12 Sep 2017 13:59:16 GMT

The main thing I'll recommend looking for in the lens you expect to use for track photos is that it have IS that works in the panning mode. You will want the help of IS when shooting the cars at slow enough shutter speeds to blur the background & wheels / tires.

Re: Newbie looking for body and lens recommendations to use in motorsports/automotive shoots

TTMartin — Tue, 12 Sep 2017 16:26:18 GMT

@hoosierdaddy wrote:
Thanks for the excellent recommendation on the camera bodies, I appreciate it! And I am in the US. I figured one lens would just be a start, and I'm open to renting those long telephoto lenses for races or specific use. I'd been looking at the 5D MK III and 7D MKII. I like the fact that both can also do HD video. I'll check out your link. I grew up going to demo derbies, figure eights, and the drag strip. Nice to connect with another gear head on here!

The 7D Mk II is your camera of choice.

As far as lenses go do NOT get the 24-70 it is not a good match for an APS-C camera like the 7D Mk II.

I'd look at the EF 70-200 l IS II or if that is out of your price range the EF-S 55-250 IS STM is an increadible value and works well for autocross.

I don't have any of my photos with me they are in FL and I've evacuated due to Irma. But, here is a picture of me by Kevin Lanterman.

Re: Newbie looking for body and lens recommendations to use in motorsports/automotive shoots

hoosierdaddy — Tue, 12 Sep 2017 16:38:40 GMT

Tim, Thanks for the through run down on the bodies. I appreciate your recommendation for the body and lens, this is very helpful for me in the decision making process

Re: Newbie looking for body and lens recommendations to use in motorsports/automotive shoots

hoosierdaddy — Tue, 12 Sep 2017 16:41:37 GMT

Scott, Thanks for your suggestion on the 7D, it seems everyone feels that's the way for me to start out. Thanks for the 70-200 & 17-55 lens recommendations.

Re: Newbie looking for body and lens recommendations to use in motorsports/automotive shoots

ScottyP — Tue, 12 Sep 2017 22:19:42 GMT

My buddy had one of those Honda coupes and I drove it. Very nice. I hear they are going to start making it again.

Re: Newbie looking for body and lens recommendations to use in motorsports/automotive shoots

cicopo — Wed, 13 Sep 2017 13:09:40 GMT

TT your sample is good but in general we try to show some motion blur in Motorsports with a few exceptions. The one venue where freezing everything in the frame seems to be standard practice is Motocross. There's usually lots of stuff in the frame to imply speed but when it's cars racing around the track & you're shooting from the side freezing the frame changes what we percieve is going on. This first sample shows a Mustang parked on the track but in actual fact it's at full speed. I was using a very high shutter speed testing camera / lenses AF systems for vintage races the following week. I wanted to know which combos could track the cars at full speed & believe it or not even the original Sigma 18-200 did fine.

These are what are considered correct for the venue, background, wheels & tires blurred but the car & driver in focus. Finding the right shutter speed range determines just how much background blur & too slow along with a busy background can result in a shot that draws your eye away from the subject which isn't good. This photo is just on the edge of acceptable due to the corner worker. Your eye isn't 100% sure where the main subject is. The second sample is the desired effect.

Re: Newbie looking for body and lens recommendations to use in motorsports/automotive shoots

TTMartin — Wed, 13 Sep 2017 17:34:19 GMT

@cicopo wrote:
TT your sample is good but in general we try to show some motion blur in Motorsports with a few exceptions.

I agree. But, if you had read my post you would have realized that the photo was not posted to illustrate either specific gear or photographic technique. But, was a photo by another photographer, of me and my car participating in autocross, nothing more.

Re: Newbie looking for body and lens recommendations to use in motorsports/automotive shoots

cicopo — Wed, 13 Sep 2017 17:57:57 GMT

I did read the post but missed that you were the driver rather than the photographer. It happens.

Re: Newbie looking for body and lens recommendations to use in motorsports/automotive shoots

amfoto1 — Thu, 14 Sep 2017 05:53:43 GMT

@hoosierdaddy wrote:
Hello all! New to the Canon Community. I've been a hobbyist for a few years with prior experience starting with the A2 and Elan film bodies. In addition to the film bodies I also have a Rebel XT (circa 2003-2005). I took some time away from Canon, and have been relying on my smartphone's (8MP) camera for the last several years. I write an automotive lifestyle blog, travel for motorsports as well as club events, and go any other car event close to me. Looking to get more serious about my product/results, and would like to hear recommendations for a body, and the 1-2 must have lenses as well as any other gear that would be useful for car shoots and motorsports. I still have four lenses: 28-105mm, 85mm, 100mm macro, and 75-300mm ultrasonic lenses from my film days. My thought for the first lens is the 24-70mm II f/2.8 USM for the utility role. Any advice would be most appreciated, and thanks in advance

Assuming they are EF lenses you used on your XT, A2 or Elan, they will work fine on a new camera. No need to buy a new lens unless you really want one.

The EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM is a fine, premium quality lens. It's also fairly pricey, large and heavy. You might also want to consider the EF 24-70mm f/4L IS USM, which is not only lower priced, but also a bit smaller, lighter and it even has image stabilization (which the f/2.8 lens lacks). The f/4 version also has exceptionally close focusing and is able to do very high quality 0.7X magnification or nearly 3/4 life size on its own, so you might not need to carry a macro lens a lot of the time. The f/2.8 lens' maximum magnification is 0.29X or a little less than 1/3 life size. (Either lens can be made closer focusing by adding a macro extension tube.)

There's also the EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM II, which uses a new "Nano USM" focus drive that's not only fast (like most USM lenses), but it's also quiet and smooth (like STM lenses). This makes it useful for video work, as well as still photography.

And of these three lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8L II USM, 24-70mm f/4L IS USM or 24-105mm f/4L IS USM II - would be a nice upgrade from your EF 28-150mm.All of these are EF lenses that will work fine on either full frame or APS-C crop sensor camera bodies.

But if you get a crop sensor camera (like your XT), you might want to consider some of the excellent EF-S lenses instead. The EF-S 18-135mm IS USM, EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM and EF-S 15-85mm IS USM are all very good to excellent and would give you wider angle of view on a crop sensor camera such as T7i, 77D, 80D or 7D Mark II.

But if you instead get a full frame camera such as 6D Mark II, 5D Mark IV, 5DS-R or 1DX Mark II, you would need to limit yourself to EF lenses, such as those above (and the lenses you already have).

The weakest lens in your current kit is probably your EF 75-300mm, especially if it's the "III" without either USM or IS.... which is a pretty basic, inexpensive "kit" quality lens that has been "bundled" with a lot of the Rebel camera models over the years. There are a number of Canon 70-200mm, 70-300mm and 100-400mm that would be a significant upgrade and particularly a much better performer for action shoots such as motorsports. .

EDIT: I read a bit farther and see that you mention a budget of $2500. That being the case, I'd recommend the 80D with EF-S 18-135mm IS USM "kit" lens. While not quite as high performance as 7D Mark II, the 80D actually has higher resolution and uses a newer design sensor, yet is considerably less expensive. It can be bought new in kit with that lens for $1500 right now (after a $300 instant rebate). The same kit is available "refurbished" direct from the Canon USA website for $1130.

In comparison, the 7DII in kit with 18-135mm IS "STM" lens (which is a bit slower focusing than Nano USM) costs about $1850 after instant rebate... wiping out most of your budget. The 24MP 80D can shoot stills at a very respectable 8 frames per second, while the 20MP 7DII is a little faster at 10 fps. The 80D has a fairly sophisticated 45-point AF system (all the faster "cross" type, 27 points are "f/8 capable" with select lenses). The 7DII has an even more sophisticated 65-point AF system (all cross type, only one f/8 capable point at the center). 80D has an articulate Touchscreen LCD monitor. The 7DII's LCD monitor is not articulated and is not a Touchscreen. 7DII has dual memory card slots (1 CF, 1 SD), while 80D only has one (SD). 7DII has a bit better sealing and durability.... is rated for 200,000 actuations. Not sure about the 80D, but suspect it's rated for about 100,000 actuations.

With between $1000 and $1370 of your budget remaining, look for a Canon EF 100-400mm L IS USM (first version). That's a darned good lens for sports photography and still can be found new for $1300, or for under $1000 used. (The current "Mark II" costs over $2000 new and is rarely seen used.)

An alternative would be one or another of the EF 70-300mm IS USM lenses. The current "II" costs around $500 and has Nano USM similar to the 24-105mm mentioned above. There's also a beefier, premium 70-300mm "L" with top image quality that sells new for $1350 and is pretty widely available used for around $1100 or less.

Actually, a 70D would also be fine for your purposes. It's 20MP, same as the 7DI,I and has a 19-point AF system that's similar to the original 7D model's. Now discontinued, 70D are hard to find new, but often available refurbished directly from Canon.... body only for $750 or in kit with EF-S 18-135mm IS STM lens for $850 right now. That would leave more money to put towards your telephoto, other lenses or accessories.

I would not recommend any of the full frame cameras, which are more expensive and probably more than you need... plus are limited to full frame capable lenses which tend to be bigger, heavier and more expensive, too. Except for the top of the line 1DX models, FF cameras also aren't as fast shooting as the 80D and 7DII... slower frame rate, slightly slower flash sync, etc.

Hope this helps!

***********

Alan Myers
San Jose, Calif., USA
"Walk softly and carry a big lens."
GEAR: 5DII, 7DII (x2), 7D(x2) some other cameras, various lenses & accessories
FLICKR & EXPOSUREMANAGER

Re: Newbie looking for body and lens recommendations to use in motorsports/automotive shoots

hoosierdaddy — Thu, 14 Sep 2017 09:22:16 GMT

Alan,

Thank you indeed for that thorough evaluation and recommendation! It's extremely helpful to me! You've given me a lot to think about. I was/am considering the 7DII, but hadn't thought about the 80. Thank you as well for the analysis of the lenses. I have a local shop in (DC) willing to buy my old Ultrasonic lenses to upgrade to L glass. They have presented me with several used 5DMKiii and 7Dmki's to consider. They also mentioned Sony's mirrorless A7 series.

Re: Newbie looking for body and lens recommendations to use in motorsports/automotive shoots

Waddizzle — Thu, 14 Sep 2017 22:55:52 GMT

@hoosierdaddy wrote:
Alan,

Thank you indeed for that thorough evaluation and recommendation! It's extremely helpful to me! You've given me a lot to think about. I was/am considering the 7DII, but hadn't thought about the 80. Thank you as well for the analysis of the lenses. I have a local shop in (DC) willing to buy my old Ultrasonic lenses to upgrade to L glass. They have presented me with several used 5DMKiii and 7Dmki's to consider. They also mentioned Sony's mirrorless A7 series.

Stick to a Canon DSLR. The most common complaint with Sony, and most every other mirrorless brand, is the short battery life. Stick with a Canon DSLR, and get a battery grip for extra power, so you shoot 1000 shots on a single charge with a big lens.

The 5D3 and 7D2 are both professional grade workhorses. But some of the newer camera bodies outshine them when it comes to the number of AF points that can focus at f/8, 1 versus 27 points. The biggest advantage with the 5D3 and 7D2 are body builds, which is a BIG plus in their favor. But, how much that outweighs a more capable AF sensor is up to you.

Personally, I have used the 7D2 and 80D side by side for a few months, and found that I liked th 80D better. When shooting action sports, sometimes you need very fast shutter speeds. Maybe not so much with motorsports, but with most sports you want to use a high shutter speed. Unless you have a very fast telephoto lens [EXPENSIVE], your aperture will be somewhere between f/4 and f/8, most likely closer to f/8 than f/4.

A high SS usually necessitates a higher ISO setting, and this is where the 7D2 has left me wanting at times. The 7D2 is too noisy at ISO 3200, and barely makes the grade at ISO 1600. The 80D always seemed to be one full ISO stop better than the 7D2 when it came to noise. I found myself reading for the Canon 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L more often than the Sigma 150-600mm f/5-6.3, just so that I could use the wider aperture settings at longer focal lengths.

I would go for the full frame 5D3 over the 7D2 in a heartbeat, because of its' lower noise. Another potential winner could be the 6D2, which has low noise performance comparable to its' predecessor and 27 AF points that work at f/8.

I think that whatever lens you choose, should be considered when you select a camera body. Pick a lens, then pick a camera body that can get th most out of it.

Re: Newbie looking for body and lens recommendations to use in motorsports/automotive shoots

hoosierdaddy — Fri, 15 Sep 2017 04:39:53 GMT

Wadizzle, I hadn't considered the 80D previously so I'll check into that as well as the 6D2 which I'd just found. Thanks for the information!