topic Re: Canon lens updates in EF & RF Lenses

Canon lens updates

Edward — Mon, 28 Jan 2013 20:14:27 GMT

I recently repurchased a 70-200 mm f 2.8 Is MKII to replace the older model that I sold 3 years ago. I never liked this lens because it was heavy and the positioning of the focusing and the zoom rings. The reason for the repurchase was because the image quality of my favorite 100-400 mm IS lens shows its deficiencies when used with the Canon 5DIII.

Since the autofocus functions has improved particular in the 5DIII and the IDx, the need to use the AF ring has greatly decreased to almost never used. So why don't get rid of this ring and transfer the function to the back wheel of the cameras when needed, this wheel can be programmed to do so. This will allow for moving the AF ring forward in the 70-200 and eliminating totally the focusing ring. In addition, a better balancing when handholding the lens/camera will be achieved as well as a reduction in mechanical parts, less weight in plus better weather sealing.

This concept could be applied to other lenses such as my 400 mm f2.8 MKII that has an oversized focusing ring that again I seldom if ever use.

Re: Canon lens updates

cicopo — Tue, 29 Jan 2013 03:07:47 GMT

Because there are other users with other bodies which don't / won't have the same ability.

Re: Canon lens updates

p4pictures — Tue, 29 Jan 2013 10:29:27 GMT

Actually I think your idea has some merit, it's time the whole system was looked at to see if there are better ways to do things in the future.

Though specifically for me as I'm a left eyed shooter then I would find the rear dial a bit awkard for manual focus.

Brian / p4pictures

Re: Canon lens updates

jeffk42 — Thu, 31 Jan 2013 12:57:53 GMT

Well, there are a couple of points to make here. First, "almost never used" is your experience but not everyone's. Sure the AF is great normally but throw some extension tubes on some lenses and your AF will stop working. Also, a lot of macro photography might require precision manual focus since the DoF is already so razor thin.

Second, in order for a fly-by-wire manual focus system like you suggest to be successful, it would have to be perfectly stepless -- and that's no easy feat for a digital system (i.e., if a 'click' of the wheel adjusts from 0.5 to 0.6, what if I need my focus at 0.527?). Even if you could do it, you'd have to manage a way to move between super-fine control and the ability to go from one end to the other quickly when needed. Honestly, there's no better system for this than turning the ring by hand.

Of course, then there's the issue of backward compatibility with older bodies. And bodies like the D-Rebels that don't have wheels. And since most people have their face up to the camera to judge MF, dialing it in using the wheel would be pretty awkward.

Aside from possibly improving the weather sealing, I see very little benefit to such a system. Handholding won't change - AF is internal anyway, and the focus ring doesn't move. Feel free to hold it there if you want!

Anyway, those are my thoughts, for what little they're worth.

By the way, Canon tried a similar move in the 1980's with their 35-80 "Power Zoom" lens, where they decided people might want stepped electronic zoom controls instead of a ring. They also removed the manual focus capability, probably thinking like you did, that no one needs it when you have great AF. It was an abysmal failure and didn't last long. (side note, I've used one of these and indeed they are attrocious. )

Re: Canon lens updates

John — Thu, 07 Feb 2013 05:02:08 GMT

I bet the OP's suggestion for the using the body's quick control dial is possible with a firmware update. Maybe enable/disable it via a custom setting.

Taking the focus ring off of the lens may decrease the cost of making the lens, but it would definately alienate most buyers. Since Rebels don't have a quick control dial on the back, they probably won't buy a lens without a focus ring. And Rebels outsell the XD and XXD bodies handily.

Besides, my left hand would get a little bored.

Re: Canon lens updates

HDCamTeam — Fri, 08 Feb 2013 01:17:22 GMT

@Edward wrote:
I recently repurchased a 70-200 mm f 2.8 Is MKII to replace the older model that I sold 3 years ago. I never liked this lens because it was heavy and the positioning of the focusing and the zoom rings. The reason for the repurchase was because the image quality of my favorite 100-400 mm IS lens shows its deficiencies when used with the Canon 5DIII.

Since the autofocus functions has improved particular in the 5DIII and the IDx, the need to use the AF ring has greatly decreased to almost never used. So why don't get rid of this ring and transfer the function to the back wheel of the cameras when needed, this wheel can be programmed to do so. This will allow for moving the AF ring forward in the 70-200 and eliminating totally the focusing ring. In addition, a better balancing when handholding the lens/camera will be achieved as well as a reduction in mechanical parts, less weight in plus better weather sealing.

This concept could be applied to other lenses such as my 400 mm f2.8 MKII that has an oversized focusing ring that again I seldom if ever use.

The idea of controlling focus with the rear wheel is possible, and a very interesting one. In fact there are some 3rd party accessories like Okii FC1 USB controller that allows focus control, and also ML's feautre.

BUT there are tons of other users who do use the focus ring often. Not to mention for video purpose, where focus is always manually controlled. So getting rid of the focus ring would be an astronomical mistake.

Regards

Re: Canon lens updates

Edward — Fri, 08 Feb 2013 04:19:02 GMT

I reviewed the line of Canon EOS and all have a wheel/button that can be programed to use to electronically focus a lens without a focusing ring.

In the not so long past, all SLR lenses came with an f-stop ring that is now gone from most EOS lenses (except for shift lenses some macro lenses). When this ring disappeared, the depth of field scale also disappeared, a most practical tool to hyperfocus a lens. Does any one complaint about this?

Currently most point and shoot digital cameras do not have a focusing ring or way of adjusting it with a wheel or button; nor do the smart phones that are delegating point and shoot cameras to the dust bin.

In the near future, most EOS cameras will not have a mirror box. For the purists, this may considered a drawback as is the idea to getting rid of the focusing ring.

As I stated before, removal oi the focusing ring will reduce weight, the number of mechanical parts, better weather sealing. Finally, the incentive for the manufacturers to eliminate the focusing ring will happen since it reduces production costs and increase profits. Time will tell.

Re: Canon lens updates

domina — Sat, 09 Feb 2013 07:50:13 GMT

I base my lens purchasing decisions on how good the focus ring is 🙂 I want to be able to focus manually and I bought the Ef-S high-precision focusing screen for my EOS 60D specifically for manual focus work, as well as a third-party LCD magnifier accessory. I mainly use it with old manual-focus lenses. But I want the aperture ring back on modern lenses, as well as good focus rings!

Re: Canon lens updates

HDCamTeam — Mon, 11 Feb 2013 19:41:06 GMT

@domina wrote:
I base my lens purchasing decisions on how good the focus ring is 🙂 I want to be able to focus manually and I bought the Ef-S high-precision focusing screen for my EOS 60D specifically for manual focus work, as well as a third-party LCD magnifier accessory. I mainly use it with old manual-focus lenses. But I want the aperture ring back on modern lenses, as well as good focus rings!

Agree. I also would love to see the aperture ring back (aside from being able to control de aperture from the camera).

The reason is simple: being able to keep an exact aperture aliminates small difference in aperture when shooting time lapse or any other sequence of large amount of shots. With current electronic controlled aperture ring, the aperture is not 100% reliable. That's why even when selecting f/5.6 (for instance) you won't always get f/5.6. Small differences will happen, that will show up as small difference in exposure.

Old system used by Nikon was probably not fast as today's, but you were able to set the aperture manually or set it to the maximum f-stop to let the camera control it. That was really useful.

But, I don't think we'll see such "step back" from any manufacturer (that's why we use some lenses with aperture ring for specific purposes 🙂 )

Back to the OP: if you get rid of the focus ring, current follow focus system used for filmmaking would be unusable on those lenses without focus ring. The capability of controlling focus with a FF system, is amazing and extremely important, you don't need to see the screen (or EVF, or any kind of monitor) because you already marked the focus points acording to the scene you're filming. Of course, that's for video/filmmaking purposes.

But honestly I don't think manufacturers will get rid of focus ring, at least in near future, especially Canon which has earned SO MUCH from the video/Cinema features implemented on DSLRs...

Regards

PS: I also carefully check the smoothness of the focus ring when purchasing a lens. I don't like any kind of slack or "play" on it. I make fine adjustments by hand when shooting video and stills very often.

Re: Canon lens updates

David — Wed, 20 Feb 2013 01:35:43 GMT

Although the autofocusing has greatly improved with the latest cameras, they still do not always know where you want the focus plane to be and manual focus will then be needed (bird in a tree surrounded by branches).

I learned by using manual focusing cameras so maybe I am biased but having the focusing ring on the lens seems like the most logical and fastest way to manual focus a camera.

Re: Canon lens updates

cicopo — Wed, 20 Feb 2013 03:15:43 GMT

I grew up shooting MF lenses too but the cameras included focusing aids like the split prism which is no longer needed nor supplied on bodies thanks to the AF system. There are optional screens available but trying to select the perfect match adds cost & experimentation and all things considered isn't an improvement in my eyes. My main interest has been fast paced action & in thr old days you pre focused on an area that you expected that action to be & shot when it happened, if it did, but now I let the AF system do all of that & in my case it REALLY delivers.

Re: Canon lens updates

ebiggs1 — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 14:23:46 GMT

Aperture ring, No. The focus ring, Yes!

I see no use for the aperture ring, in my world, but I want the focus ring.

Re: Canon lens updates

HDCamTeam — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 21:39:57 GMT

@ebiggs1 wrote:
Aperture ring, No. The focus ring, Yes!
I see no use for the aperture ring, in my world, but I want the focus ring.

The problem with Electromagnetic Diaphragms systems is that they are not 100% accurate nor consistent.

So if you want to shoot Timelapse, for instance, and you set aperture more than 2 stops from wide open, you'll mostly get "flickering" in the final rendered video, because of that inconsistency and lack of accuracy. For that reason it is highly recommended to use old lenses with mechanical aperture ring for time lapse.

As a side note, lenses with mechanical aperture ring were required to shoot a video on a very fast racing car. Current lenses weren't able to "handle" the strong vibrations and accelerations (G's), they simply failed.

Additionally, if you shoot video, a smooth "de-clicked" aperture ring is extremelly useful for filmmaking.

Of course not everyone will benefit from aperture rings, but lot of people will.

Regarding focus ring: it's essential to keep for professional, artistic and lot of other uses, and should never be discarded.

Regards