topic Re: Rebel T6 Telephoto Options Advice in EF & RF Lenses

Rebel T6 Telephoto Options Advice

EddM — Mon, 18 Sep 2017 16:49:01 GMT

New to the Community.

Have the Rebel T6 and 3 lens:

EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS II
EF 75-300mm f/4-5.6 III, and
EF 28-90mm f/4-5.6

I would like to do wildlife/bird and othe longer distance photography with a 500mm plus lens.

I am a hobbyist/amateur and really cannot afford the pricey Canon lens in that 500mm range.

Am I better of to buy something like a:

Canon Extender EF 2x Auto Focus
Viltrox C-AF 2X Teleplus/Yongnuo YN-2.0X II Teleconverter or similar
or even the Canon 1.4x EF Extender III Lens and Teleconverter

to use with the EF 75-300mm f/4-5.6 III

Buy an inexpensive manual focus only 500mm like the:

Oshiro 500mm f/6.3 (T-Mount with Adaptor)
Opteka/Bower/Vivitar 500mm f/8 (T-Mount with Adaptor)

I know you get what you pay for and all but would appreciate feedback, thoughts, recommendations.

Re: Rebel T6 Telephoto Options Advice

TCampbell — Mon, 18 Sep 2017 17:44:16 GMT

Birding is tough on a budget.

The "cheap" lenses that birders love are

1) the Sigma 150-600mm in the "contemporary" version (Sigma makes the same lens in the "sport" version and it's a better lens ... but it's literally about twice the price. The "contemporary" is just under $900. The "sport" is just under $1800.

2) the Tamron 150-600mm ... note that there's the original which is a little less than $900 (and just a few dollars less than the Sigma) but Tamron also somewhat recently released the "G2" version which I think runs around $1400.

And these are the "cheap" lenses (because the lenses they really prefer are $2000 and up. So the definition of "cheap" is all relative.)

Do you have to use these lenses? Certainly not. Birding isn't easy... but these lenses make it a little easier. If you're trying to capture birds in flight, you need a lens that is responsive - snappy auto-focus and capable of auto-aperture changes. If you can find a non-moving bird, things are easier. But many birds are shy and it's difficult to get close enough for a well-framed shot before they fly off.

Lenses like those 500mm f/8 lenses are mirror lenses (catadioptric lenses). There are no aperture blades so exposure can only be adjusted via shutter speed (or ISO). Out-of focus blur is donut-shaped because the lens has a secondary mirror which creates a central obstruction. They are not auto-focusing lenses.

Trying to capture a shy create or a bird in flight with such a lens will be... quite a challenge (to put it mildly).

Extenders (focal length multipliers) cannot be used with just any lens. Canon has a specific list of lenses that are compatible with their 1.4x and 2.x extenders. They not only alter the focal length of the lens, they also affect the focal ratio of the lens.

If you use the 75-300mm lens (at the 300mm end - which is basically where you'll be) the lowest focal ratio is f/5.6. When you use a 1.4x extender you multiply BOTH the focal length AND the focal ratio by 1.4. This gives you an effective 420mm f/8 lens. Your camera will NOT have working auto-focus at f/8 (only a few cameras can auto-focus at f/8 and they're all high-end models.) Even so... auto-focus speed is reduced with the extender. And a 2x adapter doubles things... so the lens effectively becomes a 600mm f/11 lens (and there are zero cameras on the market that have working auto-focus at f/11).

You also take a hit in image quality when you use a focal length multiplier. Canon's latest version "III" extenders are extremely good. Third party extenders like the Kenko brand will result in quite a bit of a noticeable hit in image quality. But that assumes the lens is even compatible with a focal length multiplier AND that the camera can still have working auto-focus at the new max aperture value available with the multiplier on the lens.

You may be able to stretch the budget by looking for used lenses (hopefully in good shape).

The tele-extender isn't going to work for the 75-300mm lens. The mirror-lenses you mentioned will "work" but probably frustrate you. With that said... there's a nearby nature park that is a natural aviary for blue herons and sandhill cranes. Sandhill cranes are normally so shy that if if you spot them on the far end of a large field, by the time you step onto the field, they're gone... they're not sticking around to see if you're planning to get within 100 yards of them. But at this particular aviary, they were shockingly used to humans. I watched a mated pair wandering around foraging for food with their chicks ... and the chicks were walking up to people ... (literally within 2-3' and in one case I saw a chick go right up to an adults shoes (I think he may have been eyeing the laces in hopes that they were worms.)) That's "not" typical behavior. I had to ditch my 300mm lens for a 70-200mm.

I think this was shot at 140mm (and I cropped in very gently to improve composition).

So it's certainly possible to do bird photography with any lens (the above shot was not exactly challenging -- it was the proverbial "fish in a barrel" situation). But for most bird photography, birders prefer the native 150-600mm zoom range and the cost of the entry-priced lenses in that category are around $900 (but that's retail price on a "new" lens. You may be able to find a well-mainted used lens for much less. Especially as owners sell off their old/original versions to buy new/improved versions.

Re: Rebel T6 Telephoto Options Advice

ebiggs1 — Mon, 18 Sep 2017 17:54:26 GMT

"Have the Rebel T6 and 3 lens:

EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS II
EF 75-300mm f/4-5.6 III, and
EF 28-90mm f/4-5.6"

Forget the Canon t-cons. They won't work with what (the lenses) you have. Kenko t-cons might, I don't know for sure but I can say it probably isn't a good idea anyway.

"Oshiro 500mm f/6.3 (T-Mount with Adaptor)

Opteka/Bower/Vivitar 500mm f/8 (T-Mount with Adaptor)"

These are actually pretty decent lenses. Actually they are all the same lens just rebranded with whatever name anybody puts on them. The big problem is they are totally manual. You will do everything. Challenging to focus. So, if that doesn't bother you, go for it. It is the cheapest way to go.

I might suggest another option. Used market. SInce Tamron has come out with the G2, the originals (150-600mm f5-6.3) are a buy ($500 or less). Another choice and they are really cheap now is the Sigma 150-500mm f5-6.3. I have seen these for $300 bucks in great condition. I have one, in fact I have had three of them. The one I have is not just good but it is very good. But it was the choice of three.

Re: Rebel T6 Telephoto Options Advice

Waddizzle — Mon, 18 Sep 2017 23:43:50 GMT

@EddM wrote:
New to the Community.

Have the Rebel T6 and 3 lens:
EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS II
EF 75-300mm f/4-5.6 III, and
EF 28-90mm f/4-5.6

Forget using a teleextender with that camera body. The AF sensor lacks the sensitivity to work your EF 75-300mm over its' full zoom range when it is used with an extender. It will work with the 1.4x at 75mm, and not much more focal length. Your camera body will not AF at all with a 2.0x extender.

You don't want to buy an extender only to use it at just the short end of your zoom lens, or forcing yourself to manual focus. So, save your money and forget about an extender. As noted above, they work best with premium camera bodies that have sensitive AF sensors that can focus at narrow apertures, like f/8.

Birding can be an expensive hobby. It begins with a high quality super telephoto lens, which means a focal length greater than 300mm. Using a high performance camera body is a huge advantage. More AF points translates into better AF tracking of moving subjects. Having an image sensor capable of high ISO settings translates into faster shutter speeds, which is crucial for getting sharp photos of quickly moving subjects.

None of that comes cheap, but it doesn't have to be expensive. While Canon doesn't currently offer a lens in the niche that you are looking for, you may want to look at the new Sigma 100-400mm lens. It has much better image quality than your 75-300mm, and it focuses much faster, too.

If you wish to learn more about exposure, and how different settings can impact the end result, invest in a fast lens with a wide aperture, like the EF 50mm f/1.8 STM lens. This will give you the opportunity to explore faster shutter speeds and wide apertures. The cost of the lens is well worth the cost, which is less than most photography classes.

Re: Rebel T6 Telephoto Options Advice

EddM — Tue, 19 Sep 2017 14:04:05 GMT

Want to thank everyone for the input and advice.

DSLR is new to me as I shot 35mm film in the past and got away from it.

The teleconvertors are obviously out.

Will look at some of the recommended other lens.

Might still think about the non-mirror 500mm manual focus as that doesn't bother me as I shot a lot of 35mm film manual for years.

As I look at some things might reach out again for input.

Edd M.

Re: Rebel T6 Telephoto Options Advice

ebiggs1 — Tue, 19 Sep 2017 14:13:11 GMT

"...manual focus as that doesn't bother me as I shot a lot of 35mm film manual..."

It isn't the same as it was on a 35mm camera. They were designed for manual focus. Current DSLR's like your Rebel T6 is not. This makes it more of a challenge to get pin point focus. That said, it can be done. It is possible.

Re: Rebel T6 Telephoto Options Advice

EddM — Tue, 19 Sep 2017 14:14:59 GMT

Thanks again, learning more as I go.

Appreciated.

Re: Rebel T6 Telephoto Options Advice

Waddizzle — Tue, 19 Sep 2017 22:41:14 GMT

@EddM wrote:
Want to thank everyone for the input and advice.

DSLR is new to me as I shot 35mm film in the past and got away from it.

The teleconvertors are obviously out.

Will look at some of the recommended other lens.

Might still think about the non-mirror 500mm manual focus as that doesn't bother me as I shot a lot of 35mm film manual for years.

As I look at some things might reach out again for input.

Edd M.

If you're looking at one of the 500mm lenses, that is long like a telescope, then be advised that the tripod foot on most of them is not very stable. There is too much wobble and play, even after you lock it down, because of the high moment of inertia caused by the camera body being so far away from the center of the tripod.

Without a very robust tripod, the off-center load will quickly destabilize your average tripod/head combo. And, with 500mm on an APS-C sensor, you are going to need some type of support.

Re: Rebel T6 Telephoto Options Advice

EddM — Wed, 20 Sep 2017 04:11:54 GMT

Thanks for the input. Not sure I am going to go with one of those 500mm manual focus.

I do have a fairly robust tripod with a 20lb capacity rating so should be good if I go that route.

Re: Rebel T6 Telephoto Options Advice

Waddizzle — Wed, 20 Sep 2017 06:29:10 GMT

@EddM wrote:
Thanks for the input. Not sure I am going to go with one of those 500mm manual focus.

I do have a fairly robust tripod with a 20lb capacity rating so should be good if I go that route.

Want to test how stable your tripod and head really are? Use your 75-300mm lens, and try focusing on the Moon in Live View. You will need to switch the lens AF/MF switch to MF. You will also need to use the 10x magnify mode in Live View.

If you are using a ball head, then your first problem is going to be pointing at the Moon. Ignoring the fact that the Moon is constantly moving out of the frame, you can expect the camera/lens combo to shift slightly as you tighten ball head. This shift, or backlash, only gets worse with longer, heavier lenses.

Once you get the camera locked in place, with the Moon in the frame, try turning the focus ring. If your view of the Moon suddenly turns into what looks like an earthquake, which makes it difficult to impossible to focus, then this is not uncommon. The longer the focal length of the lens, the worse the earthquake.

The load ratings of tripods are not exact science. There is no standard behind it, AFAIK. Some manufacturers seem to be overly optimistic in their load ratings, while a few others seem to be under rated. One thing is for sure, though. A tripod is most stable with the center column fully lowered. Some are most stable with their legs retracted. All are most stable with a load that is centered over the Center-of-Gravity of the tripod. You can make similar observations regarding tripod heads.

Using a heavy telephoto lens, and then pointing it upwards towards the Moon, presents a significant load that is not centered above the CoG of either the tripod legs, or the tripod head. Leveling the camera/lens, and aiming at the horizon, significantly reduces the problems you may have observed while pointed upwards, above 45 degrees, at the Moon.

Re: Rebel T6 Telephoto Options Advice

ebiggs1 — Wed, 20 Sep 2017 14:22:37 GMT

"I do have a fairly robust tripod with a 20lb capacity rating so should be good if I go that route."

Those lenses are very light. Maybe even as light or lighter than you 75-300mm zoom. The tripod will not be the issue.

"Not sure I am going to go with one of those 500mm manual focus."

OK, if that is the case and you go with one of the lenses I suggested the tripod could be an issue. It will need to be 'robust'.

Re: Rebel T6 Telephoto Options Advice

EddM — Sat, 23 Sep 2017 06:52:38 GMT

What is the opinion on the SIGMA 170-500mm F5-6.3 APO

Re: Rebel T6 Telephoto Options Advice

Waddizzle — Sat, 23 Sep 2017 09:29:45 GMT

@EddM wrote:
What is the opinion on the SIGMA 170-500mm F5-6.3 APO

I suppose that mean the Sigma 150-500mm f/5-6.3 lens. It is a pretty good lens. If you can verify that it is in good condition before you pay for it, then I see no reason not to go for it. New lenses came with a hood, a tripod foot, and a storage case.

Just be advised that lens has noticeable vignetting, so you photos will need lens correction. This could be a potential problem because the Canon DPP software does not perform automatic lens correction on the third party lenses. You would have to dial in lens correction manually.

You can get the best performance out of that lens by setting the aperture to f/8, which helps to reduce vignetting, and also produces sharper images than at f/5 or f/6.3. Sunny shooting conditions produces the best results, because of the narrow aperture. It is also a heavy beast of lens, for your T6. You would need to support the lens, and not allow it hang from the front of the camerra body.

I used to leave the tripod foot on the lens all the time, so I could use it as a handle to support the lens when shooting, or carrying the lens when walking. A tripod would be advisable until you can figure out how to shoot with a super telephoto lens. Aiming will be similar to looking through a drinking straw.

I think you will love it. I do not know what the used selliing price is now, but they cleared them out two years ago for less than $700 each when it was discontinued.

Re: Rebel T6 Telephoto Options Advice

ebiggs1 — Sat, 23 Sep 2017 14:22:27 GMT

"What is the opinion on the SIGMA ~~170~~ 150-500mm F5-6.3 APO

Like said before I have had three of these. It is a good lens but not a great lens. The one of three I kept and have now is better than the two I sold. They were both acceptable but this one is just a tad bit better. I can totally recommend it as a low cost option for a super zoom. Keep in mind that the replacements for it from both Sigma and Tamron are better. But they cost more!

To be clear the part of this lens that let's it down is the leisurely AF. The IQ is fine. It wouldn't be a first choice for fast sports unless you take certain precautions. Manual focus any time you want even in AF mode. It isn't too heavy at about 4 lbs. Totally hand holdable but on the T6 you are looking at focal length of 240 - 800 mm. That is serious focal length. Holding it still will be a challenge. The OS is also a little tardy. Build is really good. Better that some other similar lenses.

It is a lens that can make you happy. Be careful buying used. Check it out ON YOUR CAMERA.

Re: Rebel T6 Telephoto Options Advice

RobertTheFat — Sat, 23 Sep 2017 14:41:36 GMT

@ebiggs1 wrote:
"What is the opinion on the SIGMA ~~170~~ 150-500mm F5-6.3 APO

Like said before I have had three of these. It is a good lens but not a great lens. The one of three I kept and have now is better than the two I sold. They were both acceptable but this one is just a tad bit better. I can totally recommend it as a low cost option for a super zoom. Keep in mind that the replacements for it from both Sigma and Tamron are better. But they cost more!
To be clear the part of this lens that let's it down is the leisurely AF. The IQ is fine. It wouldn't be a first choice for fast sports unless you take certain precautions. Manual focus any time you want even in AF mode. It isn't too heavy at about 4 lbs. Totally hand holdable but on the T6 you are looking at focal length of 240 - 800 mm. That is serious focal length. Holding it still will be a challenge. The OS is also a little tardy. Build is really good. Better that some other similar lenses.

It is a lens that can make you happy. Be careful buying used. Check it out ON YOUR CAMERA.

Ernie, I think you and Waddizzle are answering the wrong question. There actually was a Sigma 170-500mm f/5-6.3 lens.

Re: Rebel T6 Telephoto Options Advice

EddM — Sat, 23 Sep 2017 14:42:18 GMT

Actually it is listed and shown as SIGMA 170-500mm F5-6.3 APO DG

See pic.

Re: Rebel T6 Telephoto Options Advice

ebiggs1 — Sat, 23 Sep 2017 15:06:41 GMT

I have no knowledge of that lens so I am not able to comment. Never touched one or even seen one. Sorry.

I can vouch for the Sigma 150-500mm f/5-6.3 APO DG OS HSM Lens for Canon so if you find a nice one go for it.

Re: Rebel T6 Telephoto Options Advice

Waddizzle — Sat, 23 Sep 2017 15:48:49 GMT

I assumed incorrectly. I have heard of that lens before. I have never used it before, and I understand that it is an older design from over a decade ago.

As Ernie remarked about the more recent 150-500, there are a few issues with it. It would be a fair to assume that the 170-500mm is likely to have similar issues, if not worse.

I got my best results by turning off the Optical Stabilization with the 150-500mm, which solved many of the issues, except for the vignetting, which can be cleaned up in post processing, provided that you shot RAW. I'm not sure if the 170-500 even has Optical Stabililzation.

A few minutes of research suggests that the 170-500mm is basically a lens originally designed for film cameras. Lenses designed for digital sensors have special anti-reflective coatings to minimize reflection off of the image sensor, and its' filters. This lens was made "digital ready" by giving it the coatings needed for digitial sensors.

I would follow Ernie's advice, and try it out on your camera first. If you are buying it from eBay or Amazon, then you are taking a risk with your money. It is a risk that I find unacceptable, but some people do not mind the hassle of trying to return something for a refund.

Re: Rebel T6 Telephoto Options Advice

EddM — Sun, 24 Sep 2017 05:21:17 GMT

Ok here's another lens I am looking at:

Tamron 200-500mm SP IF LD DI

Yes it is discontinued but the pricing may be right and in my limited budget.

Anyone know anything?

Thanks again.

Edd

Re: Rebel T6 Telephoto Options Advice

Waddizzle — Sun, 24 Sep 2017 14:21:45 GMT

@EddM wrote:

Tamron 200-500mm SP IF LD DI

I do not know anything about that lens. Be advised, that more times than not, you get what you paid for. Because your T6 is an entry level camera, there are probably more disadvantages to using a third party lens, than a canon lens.

What type, or size, of birds are you looking to photograph?

The real trick to getting good photographs being close to the subject. I shot the above photography with an EF-S 18-135mm lens on a Rebel T5, which was the predecessor to your T6. The cameras seem identical, minus the Wi-Fi.

If you are just starting out, then there is a learning curve looming in front of you. I suggest climbing the ladder, and starting out with an EF-S 55-250mm lens from the Canon Online Refurbished Store, and get a one year warranty backed by Canon.

https://shop.usa.canon.com/shop/en/catalog/lenses-flashes/refurbished-lenses