topic Re: Photogrammetry lenses - something like Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM for full frame? in EF & RF Lenses

Photogrammetry lenses - something like Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM for full frame?

Eliska — Fri, 02 Jun 2017 08:08:53 GMT

Dear all,

i recently started employing photogrammetry in process of documenting medieval architecture. I have been working with Canon EOS 50D with Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM lenses - exteriors and details with lightening work fine, but interior spaces are, of course, a disaster besause of light issues. Besides getting some more powerfull artificial lightening, I have been thinking about upgrading the gear to full frame (Canon 6D). Now comes the problem - where to find an equivalent lenses to Canon EF-S 10-22mm? Prime lens would be nice (I suppose), or wide angle zoom, should work best around 20mm, with good light falloff allowing to use it more open than f/8 with good result. There are many lenses with much lower blur than mine, but I didnt find anything as good in terms of geometric distortion available for full frame.

Does anybody experienced has a tip?

Re: Photogrammetry lenses - something like Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM for full frame?

Waddizzle — Fri, 02 Jun 2017 08:59:21 GMT

@Eliska wrote:
Dear all,
i recently started employing photogrammetry in process of documenting medieval architecture. I have been working with Canon EOS 50D with Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM lenses - exteriors and details with lightening work fine, but interior spaces are, of course, a disaster besause of light issues. Besides getting some more powerfull artificial lightening, I have been thinking about upgrading the gear to full frame (Canon 6D).

Now comes the problem - where to find an equivalent lenses to Canon EF-S 10-22mm? Prime lens would be nice (I suppose), or wide angle zoom, should work best around 20mm, with good light falloff allowing to use it more open than f/8 with good result. There are many lenses with much lower blur than mine, but I didnt find anything as good in terms of geometric distortion available for full frame.
Does anybody experienced has a tip?

The EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-f/4.5 USM lens on your 50D gives an angle-of-view that is that is nearly identical to using the EF 16-35mm f/2.8L II USM lens on a 6D, across the entire zoom range. In other words, you're not going to get a wider angle of view without introducing barrel distortion associated with most ultra-wide angle lenses.

As for your lighting issues, do you use a tripod? Try taking a long exposure on a tripod at ISO 100 in Av mode. Natural lighting will always looks better than shots that show obvioius signs of artificial lighting.

You have an excellent lens, in the EF-S 10-22mm. The image quality rivals Canon's "L" Series ultra-wide angle zoom lenses. If you are getting blurry photos with it, then you may need to review your technique. Blurry photos sounds like your shutter speed is too slow. Raise your shutter speed, or use a tripod.

If I were taking architectural photos, I would use a tripod for every shot. You may need to capture HDR shots when you have windows in the shots, which should almost demand that you use a tripod.

The above photo is an HDR composite of three shots, taken at -1, 0, and +1 Ev. The background was so brightly lit, that a more conventional exposure would the foreground in complete shadow. Even the composite required so more tweaking.

The shots were handheld, but the camera was in continuous shooting mode, so I could quickly run off three shots. I used a 6D and the EF 16-35mm f/2.8L II USM, at 16mm. This angle of view would be identical to using your 50D with your lens set to 10mm.

I'm not sure what problems you think a full frame camera body can solve, but getting a much wider angle-of-view is one of them. A 20mm lens on a full frame would be equivalent to near the low end of your EF-S 10-22mm lens. Again, the 10-22mm on your 50D gives an angle-of-view that is equivalent to the EF 16-35mm across the entire zoom range.

Re: Photogrammetry lenses - something like Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM for full frame?

Eliska — Fri, 02 Jun 2017 12:01:30 GMT

Than you cor your reply.

For taking single photos, im used to take a tripod. But the light problem with protogrammetry is more complicated - to make a good model, i often need to shoot over 500 images in one space, all with the same manually fixed exposition, and for good results approx 1/3 of them must be taken from somewhere higt above, mostly standing on a ladder. Using tripod is not an option there, so im limited by the exposure time i can hold in hand. I dont care about the aesthetic qualities of the photos, the quality of photogrammetry depends on number of shots, their positioning and the visibility of fine details and surface structures.

I hope to obtain a better results with a camera with better low light parametres than 50D. I dont understand much about photography itself (im mainly surveyor) and I presumed, that parametres of 6D should mean a significant step-up.

With lenses, im very happy with my current lens and angle given by 22mm is perfect for my work (could be even slightly smaller). The only problem is, the lens would not work with full frame. I was hoping that prime lens could give me even more light and speed, but i was not quite impressed by the geometric distortion. None of them seems to offer the close to zero distortion, which 10-22mm gives.

Re: Photogrammetry lenses - something like Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM for full frame?

TTMartin — Fri, 02 Jun 2017 13:24:45 GMT

@Eliska wrote:
Than you cor your reply.
For taking single photos, im used to take a tripod. But the light problem with protogrammetry is more complicated - to make a good model, i often need to shoot over 500 images in one space, all with the same manually fixed exposition, and for good results approx 1/3 of them must be taken from somewhere higt above, mostly standing on a ladder. Using tripod is not an option there, so im limited by the exposure time i can hold in hand. I dont care about the aesthetic qualities of the photos, the quality of photogrammetry depends on number of shots, their positioning and the visibility of fine details and surface structures.

I hope to obtain a better results with a camera with better low light parametres than 50D. I dont understand much about photography itself (im mainly surveyor) and I presumed, that parametres of 6D should mean a significant step-up.
With lenses, im very happy with my current lens and angle given by 22mm is perfect for my work (could be even slightly smaller). The only problem is, the lens would not work with full frame. I was hoping that prime lens could give me even more light and speed, but i was not quite impressed by the geometric distortion. None of them seems to offer the close to zero distortion, which 10-22mm gives.

The 6D will gain you a few stops of light over the 50D. The EF-S 10-18 IS STM will gain you a few stops of image stabilization while handholding your 50D. The EF-S 10-18 IS STM is very reasonably priced and worth trying before spending thousands of dollars on new gear.

Re: Photogrammetry lenses - something like Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM for full frame?

ebiggs1 — Fri, 02 Jun 2017 14:52:33 GMT

This suggestion, " I used a 6D and the EF 16-35mm f/2.8L II USM,..." is going to be head and shoulders better that what you are currently using. As long as you are simply comparing the gear. Whatever you got with you current gear will be better with this suggestion.

Another very good option would be the ~~EOS 6D~~ EOS 50D (corrected edit) and the Sigma 18-35mm f/1.8 DC HSM Art Lens for Canon. Either of these lenses are good enough for accurate measurements. These are just suggestions as there are several more. You may want to explore some of the very good prime lenses in or around this focal length.

Examples might be the Sigma 50mm f/1.4 DG HSM Art Lens for Canon EF which just may be the sharpest lens made. Need to be wider, the Sigma 35mm f/1.4 DG HSM Art Lens for Canon. Extremely sharp lens. Wider, Sigma 24mm f/1.4 DG HSM Art Lens for Canon.

Want to stick with Canon? EF 35mm f/1.4L II USM, EF 24mm f/1.4L II USM and the amazing EF 14mm f/2.8L II USM. Any of these will be a solid choice and very much better than what you currently have.

Re: Photogrammetry lenses - something like Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM for full frame?

TTMartin — Fri, 02 Jun 2017 14:00:54 GMT

@ebiggs1 wrote:

Another very good option would be the EOS 6D and the Sigma 18-35mm f/1.8 DC HSM Art Lens for Canon.

The Sigma 18-35mm is a crop sensor lens, it would result in significant vignetting at all focal lengths when used on a full frame camera like the 6D. At the wide end, you would have an image circle nearly completely surrounded by black.

Re: Photogrammetry lenses - something like Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM for full frame?

kvbarkley — Fri, 02 Jun 2017 14:55:30 GMT

Look into a camera that has "Hand held Night scene" It takes 4 shots and merges them into a single one. Each individual shot can have a faster shutter speed.

Other than that, spray and pray. Take about 6-10 shots, one is bound to be sharper than the others.

Would a video steadicam rig work?

Re: Photogrammetry lenses - something like Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM for full frame?

ebiggs1 — Fri, 02 Jun 2017 14:56:20 GMT

Tommy Boy you did good. Great catch. Of course I meant to keep the 50D and get the Sigma 18-35mm f/1.8 DC HSM Art Lens for Canon as an option. I got to try this lens on a T6i and it, actually both the camera and the lens, is amazing. The Sigma Art series are beautiful lenses.

Re: Photogrammetry lenses - something like Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM for full frame?

ebiggs1 — Fri, 02 Jun 2017 15:00:52 GMT

" i often need to shoot over 500 images in one space,..."

If you are shooting that much, more than just once in a while, you probably want to stay away from the so-called "kit", "STM" lenses. They are designed as consumer products and aren't built as well as the more pro orientated lenses.

Re: Photogrammetry lenses - something like Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM for full frame?

TTMartin — Fri, 02 Jun 2017 18:38:49 GMT

@ebiggs1 wrote:
" i often need to shoot over 500 images in one space,..."

If you are shooting that much, more than just once in a while, you probably want to stay away from the so-called "kit", "STM" lenses. They are designed as consumer products and aren't built as well as the more pro orientated lenses.

Well, the old geezer is finally off his rocker. By the way that's not what I meant when I said you needed to get off your porch.

There is little chance of seeing a failure in the zoom, focus, or aperture, mechanisms (the moving parts) of ANY current Canon lens.

Eliska, don't let someone try to scare you into spending thousands of dollars when a few hundred will do.

Re: Photogrammetry lenses - something like Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM for full frame?

ebiggs1 — Fri, 02 Jun 2017 19:34:32 GMT

Tommy Boy there you go again.

"There is little chance of seeing a failure in the zoom, focus, or aperture, mechanisms (the moving parts) of ANY current Canon lens."

This is probably why all the best pros or I mean all the ones that work everyday don't buy them? Nah, can't be! I'll bet they were not aware of that but since we got you to set us straight, thank heaven. I know I do.

BTW, I think I just heard the last service tech turn off the lights, leave and lock the door of the service center as we speak. You know I think I saw on Canon Rumors that production of all lenses except STM models was going to cease. Maybe not!

Re: Photogrammetry lenses - something like Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM for full frame?

TTMartin — Fri, 02 Jun 2017 19:59:56 GMT

@ebiggs1 wrote:
Tommy Boy there you go again.
"There is little chance of seeing a failure in the zoom, focus, or aperture, mechanisms (the moving parts) of ANY current Canon lens."

This is probably why all the best pros or I mean all the ones that work everyday don't buy them? Nah, can't be! I'll bet they were not aware of that but since we got you to set us straight, thank heaven. I know I do.

BTW, I think I just heard the last service tech turn off the lights, leave and lock the door of the service center as we speak. You know I think I saw on Canon Rumors that production of all lenses except STM models was going to cease. Maybe not!

Fortunately there are places like lensrentals. com that have large samples of lenses that are heavily used. They have shared their repair data, and reliability isn't significantly different between L lenses and Canon's consumer grade lenses. Canon has improved their quality control on all their lenses.

Lensrentals noted that "several lenses that have been regulars on the list previously not only dropped off, they dropped way off. The Canon 17-55 f/2.8 IS has been a fixture on this list for IS and electrical problems since we started but not only is it gone, its repair rate has dropped to 6%, right around our average. Similarly, the Canon 10-22 EF-S has dropped off the list and now has one of our lowest repair rates."

So again, Eliska, don't let someone try to scare you into spending thousands of dollars when a few hundred will do.

Re: Photogrammetry lenses - something like Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM for full frame?

Eliska — Sat, 03 Jun 2017 10:35:20 GMT

Thanks for all the suggestions. I looked into similar option as one of the suggested - Canon 6D + EF 16-35 f/4 IS USM.

I also looked at the others suggesting keeping 50D. The problem with 50D is, that it is owned by my employer, so equiping the camera by different lenses is not a win. In fact, upgrading the gear is a part of a long-term strategy to leave my current employer behind and move to higher level - not because my boss would now appreciate me enough, just the work is not compelling enough any more. I earned some money on a project and spending 2000-3000 is not a problem, but has to be invested well.

About the lens EF16-35 f/4 IS USM, i liked the minimal geometric distorsion around 24 (now i use mostly 22) and reasonably low falloff. I mostly keep the aperture set to f/8 (as recomended due to keeping high focus range), can be set lower in some applicatios, but I dont think i would make much use of f/1.4. The range 16-35 seems quite versatile also to other uses.

So, would be Canon 6D + EF 16-35 f/4 IS USM a good investment, or do you have better suggestions?

Re: Photogrammetry lenses - something like Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM for full frame?

TTMartin — Sat, 03 Jun 2017 12:08:19 GMT

@Eliska wrote:
Thanks for all the suggestions. I looked into similar option as one of the suggested - Canon 6D + EF 16-35 f/4 IS USM.
I also looked at the others suggesting keeping 50D. The problem with 50D is, that it is owned by my employer, so equiping the camera by different lenses is not a win. In fact, upgrading the gear is a part of a long-term strategy to leave my current employer behind and move to higher level - not because my boss would now appreciate me enough, just the work is not compelling enough any more. I earned some money on a project and spending 2000-3000 is not a problem, but has to be invested well.
About the lens EF16-35 f/4 IS USM, i liked the minimal geometric distorsion around 24 (now i use mostly 22) and reasonably low falloff. I mostly keep the aperture set to f/8 (as recomended due to keeping high focus range), can be set lower in some applicatios, but I dont think i would make much use of f/1.4. The range 16-35 seems quite versatile also to other uses.
So, would be Canon 6D + EF 16-35 f/4 IS USM a good investment, or do you have better suggestions?

Canon is supposed to announce a replacement to the 6D in the next couple of months. That is based on rumors and it could really be 2 years. When the replacement of the 6D us announced the price may drop on the original. Otherwise given the additional information the Canon 6D and EF 16-35 f/4 IS USM should serve you well.

Re: Photogrammetry lenses - something like Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM for full frame?

RobertTheFat — Sat, 03 Jun 2017 13:04:57 GMT

@Eliska wrote:
Thanks for all the suggestions. I looked into similar option as one of the suggested - Canon 6D + EF 16-35 f/4 IS USM.
I also looked at the others suggesting keeping 50D. The problem with 50D is, that it is owned by my employer, so equiping the camera by different lenses is not a win. In fact, upgrading the gear is a part of a long-term strategy to leave my current employer behind and move to higher level - not because my boss would now appreciate me enough, just the work is not compelling enough any more. I earned some money on a project and spending 2000-3000 is not a problem, but has to be invested well.
About the lens EF16-35 f/4 IS USM, i liked the minimal geometric distorsion around 24 (now i use mostly 22) and reasonably low falloff. I mostly keep the aperture set to f/8 (as recomended due to keeping high focus range), can be set lower in some applicatios, but I dont think i would make much use of f/1.4. The range 16-35 seems quite versatile also to other uses.
So, would be Canon 6D + EF 16-35 f/4 IS USM a good investment, or do you have better suggestions?

I think your reasoning is sound, but I don't understand your mention of "f/1.4". Is that a typo or a reference to a different lens that you have or are considering? (I have the 16-35 f/4, BTW, and I think it's a fine lens.)

I also agree with Tom's point that this may not be the ideal time to buy a 6D, since the price could fall dramatically if its rumored replacement materializes. But it may in fact be the ideal time to buy a 5D Mark III, since its replacement has already driven its price down. And the last time I looked, they were still being sold new. If you think you'd like the 6D, you'd love the 5D3. It has comparably good low-light performance and a much better autofocus system.

The 50D was a very nice camera in it day. The only beefs I recall having with it were that its on/off switch is in a clumsy location and it lacks an IR receiver.

Re: Photogrammetry lenses - something like Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM for full frame?

Eliska — Sat, 03 Jun 2017 14:14:08 GMT

I also looked at EF 16-35 f/2.8 and other "faster" lenses, but finally come to the conclusion, it would not give me anything i can particularly use for the job.

However, the D6 II release date puts me in a dilemma - this summer is going to be the busiest season of my life so far. I have already seen the 6d for 1500 by one reseller, although the current amazon price is over 1800.

Re: Photogrammetry lenses - something like Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM for full frame?

TTMartin — Sat, 03 Jun 2017 14:47:37 GMT

@Eliska wrote:
I also looked at EF 16-35 f/2.8 and other "faster" lenses, but finally come to the conclusion, it would not give me anything i can particularly use for the job.
However, the D6 II release date puts me in a dilemma - this summer is going to be the busiest season of my life so far. I have already seen the 6d for 1500 by one reseller, although the current amazon price is over 1800.

Yes, for your use you are better off with f/4 and image stabilization than f/2.8.

You can buy a 6D refurbished from Canon direct with a one year warranty for $1200.

Re: Photogrammetry lenses - something like Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM for full frame?

ebiggs1 — Sat, 03 Jun 2017 15:50:55 GMT

"... the D6 II release date puts me in a dilemma - this summer is going to be the busiest season of my life..."

If you need it now, buy it now. It is silly to plane your life around whether Canon will or will not and when/if release a new model. The current 6D will still be a 6D even after an inevitable replacement arrives. This is the biggest difference between amateurs and photographers who are in business.

Re: Photogrammetry lenses - something like Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM for full frame?

Mitsubishiman — Sun, 04 Jun 2017 02:21:38 GMT

Hello I am a professional land surveyor, kudos to you...
Everyone has given you excellent advice, if budget is a primary consideration then definitely the EF-S, if you are looking for more, I have the 16-35 f2.8L III, an extremely remarkable lens on my 7D and 5DsR
All that being said, if the conditions and regulations permit it, start looking into a drone for the type of work you are doing on the exterior above shots, the hover mode may be what you are looking for, the sacrifice in megapixel count will be better than hit and miss of hand held in precarious situations.