topic Re: Looking For the Right Lens in EF & RF Lenses

Looking For the Right Lens

KingNine — Sun, 04 Jan 2015 07:46:19 GMT

Hello, I am a casual photographer and really just learning this great hobby. I got into it trying to get good pictures of my daughters during their ballet performances. Each step I've taken has got me a little closer to getting good pictures of them but I'm quickly running out of time. My last step was to purchase a T4i. I mainly use the kit lens 18-55 for most of the shots of them and sometimes the 55-250 if I want to get close in. I generally crank up the ISO so I can use a faster shutter speed. I find that ISO 6400 with a shutter speed of 1/400 in general is giving me the best results but not anywhere near perfect. I've pinballed around looking at lenses and my head is swimming and frankly I don't know enough to make a great desicision. The current lens I'm looking at is the Canon EF 24-105 f/4 IS USM. The other two lenses I own both go to 5.6 and I was hoping the fixed f/4 would let in more light letting me reduce the ISO for a less grainy picture. Going back and looking at most of my shots I'm usually in the 30-50mm range but that can change depending on where I get to sit at each show so a zoom lens is mandatory for me. I really want to stay around $500 to $600 if at all possible and think I can get that lens at that price range.

My second use for the camera is to film my younger daughter singing at different school or social events with an occasional picture thrown in. Would the above lens work well for that? The current lens choices I have suck. They are noisy and hunt for focus. I've heard rave reviews of the kit lens 18-135 STM for it's fluidity of movement in almost comeplete silence. I got to play with the lens a few weeks ago at a party when someone asked me to take some pics with their camera. I marveled at the speed and silence of the focus motor. I believe the f stops on it are the exact same as my current lenses though. So If I get it as well I'm guessing I'd be in the same boat as above but with better video. If I do get this STM lens would I get the same quality pics as the kit lens I have now or is it a little better than my current set up? The person who's camera I borrowed loved it but they aren't a photographer by any means. Any recomendations here are appreciated as well.

Re: Looking For the Right Lens

ebiggs1 — Sun, 04 Jan 2015 08:49:36 GMT

OK let's give this s go.

If you are shooting a f5.6 at ISO 6400 and you decide to get an f4 lens, you will be able to shoot the same scene at ISO 3200. That lens is one stop faster. Not a big deal. But, on-the-other hand if you got a f2.8 lens you are talking another stop off. The ISO would now be 1600. Pretty good, I'd say.

Unfortunaltely an f2.8 lens isn't going to be cheap. Sigma has a 17-50mm f2.8 and even better a 18-35mm f1.8. The f1.8 will allow you to drop more than another stop off your ISO to around 640. Generally speaking the lower the ISO, the less noise in the photo and the better it will look. But these are a little short of the mm (focal length) you say you need.

Any of these lenses, and the outstanding EF 24-105mm f4 will make way better pictures than your current kit lenses do. Tamron also has some choices in this area, too.

The ideal choice would be a 24-70mm f2.8 but they are going to be way more expensive. The Sigma being the cheapest in this bunch, again. The Canon EF 24-70 f2.8 L IS being the best lens there is, period, and a price tag to prove it.

The EF-S 18-135mm is a better lens than what you have but is not going to help the ISO problem. You need, one, more light on the subject or, two, a faster lens.

Another idea!

If you can live with a fixed focal lemgth, or prime, lens, you could get the EF 50mm f1.8 or better yet the EF 50mm f1.4.. Now were're taling. f1.4 is four stops faster and your ISO would drop to 400. Around $110 bucks and $350 respectively. Sound good?

There are some more prime lens choices for you. Get on the Canon web site and gaze at the primes and see if one or two might just fill the bill. The primes also have the advantage of being outstandingly sharp. Light years ahead of your kit lenses.

Sigma has some great primes, too.

Re: Looking For the Right Lens

cicopo — Sun, 04 Jan 2015 15:10:47 GMT

Good advice above. You could also add the Canon 85 f1.8 to your kit ALONG with the 50 f1.4 to have a little more reach when needed without spending too much money.

Re: Looking For the Right Lens

KingNine — Mon, 05 Jan 2015 05:57:45 GMT

Thanks for those replies. I'm going to check into what you suggested and see what I thnk and where that takes me. It sounds like even the 18-135 will give me better pics than I have now and I didn't think these were too bad. I can't wait to see the differences in the good lenses. I guess I'll end up selling my 18-55 and keeping the 55-250 untill I can get something better that can reach that far.

Unless the canon f4 lens with the USM will work for vide as good as the 18-135 STM I'll probably get the STM for video and figure out what lense I'll get for these dark ballet theater shots. One stop might not be much but It has to be better than what I have now. I will say I am amazed at the quality of shots the T4i can muster at high ISO settings.

Re: Looking For the Right Lens

ebiggs1 — Mon, 05 Jan 2015 15:18:28 GMT

I am a stills photographer not a videogrpher so I can't even make a comment on it. But remember the f-stop is the key here and not just a different lens.

Even a better lens, or best lens, that is as slow or slower than what you have will not help.

In the olden days we used to think the cut off was f4. F4 was a middle area. It was just f4, but anything slower, larger number, was considered a slow lens. Anything below, smaller number, was considered a fast lens. In your case I would suggest you stick to f2.8 or larger, smaller number. Also, IMHO, I would look for a constant aperture f2.8 lens or faster.

Re: Looking For the Right Lens

KingNine — Mon, 05 Jan 2015 19:11:09 GMT

Lol, If you ever video anything with those stock lenses the focus is very slow and the sound is so loud the video becomes almost unusable. The STM motor is whisper silent so I think I'll pick that up regardless of the lens I get for the low light photography. I was just commenting that I was glad you said it would most likely take better pics than I'm getting now if I were to use it for pics. I do understand it wouldn't help my current situation for pics much if any.

I'm very interested in the Sigma lens you suggested (17-50mm f2.8) as well as the original lens I mentioned (Canon EF 24-105 f/4 IS USM). I know the Canon is only one stop faster than I have now but I get scared of 3rd party lenses and wonder if there is any trade off in quality that I'd wish I bought the canon f4 over the sigma in the long run. They both sit in the money range I'm looking to spend unless I find the miracle Canon 2.8 lens under a grand somewhere.

I do love the idea of the great fixed lenses for those prices but if I have to sit in a location where I need a focal distance other than the lens I purchased I think I'd be very sad. I guess I could buy a bunch of them like a 30, 40 and 50 and switch as needed. Would be a little bit a PIA but as you mentioned I should get stunning photos from them. That would leave my future 18-135 STM lens as a good walkaround lens.

Re: Looking For the Right Lens

ebiggs1 — Tue, 06 Jan 2015 15:06:47 GMT

There is one part of all of this that you have not mentioned, Photoshop or some other good post editor. Great photos are only half made by the camera/lens combo.

Another thing back in the day, all video cameras had fixed lenses soem had three or four mounted on a turret that revolved in front of the caamera.

Re: Looking For the Right Lens

RobertTheFat — Tue, 06 Jan 2015 15:36:53 GMT

@ebiggs1 wrote:
Another thing back in the day, all video cameras had fixed lenses soem had three or four mounted on a turret that revolved in front of the caamera.

I remember that, now that you bring it up. I guess that arrangement must have been the immediate precursor of the zoom lens. Do you know whether any still cameras worked that way? My vague recollection is that there may have been one or two, though I'm pretty sure I never actually saw one.

Re: Looking For the Right Lens

ebiggs1 — Tue, 06 Jan 2015 16:02:01 GMT

Bob from Boston,

Back in the day, I had almost no, zero, nada, zooms. Everything was a fixed, prime lens. Zooms were so bad nobody wanted or used them. Fast foward to today, I have a whole slew of zooms and they are very, very good. Funny sometimes how things change. Unless I am playing around I almost never use a prime anymore. Although I have a few that are truly outstanding.

I absolutely love the EF 50mm f1.2 L. By far my most favorite prime lens of all time, past or present.

I have no idea if anybody still uses the old turret style cameras or not. The evolution in video zoom lens' is extraordinary. But they have an extraordinary price tag as well. Some of the Canon lenses used for sports have a zoom ratio of 70:1. I have heard of a lens' that has a 200:1 zoom factor. But some even use the old school dolly to zoom (which is not really zooming).

Re: Looking For the Right Lens

KingNine — Tue, 06 Jan 2015 18:38:45 GMT

I was really thinking of the 18-135 STM for video and everyday use and buying some primes for my ballet pics of my daughters. But hearing you mention you hardly use primes an almost use all zooms makes me think that is not a good idea. Hmmmm, Now I'm wondering if I should just go buy a camcorder for the video and put money into a good zoom lens. I've got myself all bumfuzzled now.

Re: Looking For the Right Lens

Skirball — Wed, 07 Jan 2015 15:42:55 GMT

@KingNine wrote:
I was really thinking of the 18-135 STM for video and everyday use and buying some primes for my ballet pics of my daughters. But hearing you mention you hardly use primes an almost use all zooms makes me think that is not a good idea. Hmmmm, Now I'm wondering if I should just go buy a camcorder for the video and put money into a good zoom lens. I've got myself all bumfuzzled now.

It's just one person's point of view. I primarily (no pun intended) use primes. I really don't find them as limiting as people make them out to be. There are times I absolutely need a zoom, there are times that it makes absolutely no difference, and there are times inbetween when I have to work a bit to get what I want with a prime but I can make it work and sometimes it gets me to think outside the box, which I like. It's going to depend a lot on what you shoot. But don't cross primes off the list just because someone told you they're not good.

If you can afford lenses like the EF 24-70 II and the EF 70-200 II, then it's a much tougher argument for using primes (yet they still have their place, IMHO). But we're talking about close to $5000 in glass. Even then, if you need wider than f/2.8, then nothing but a prime is going to work.

I don't know what your situation is like in ballet, but I'm going to assume that you're a good amount away from the stage, it's dark, you can't use flash, and you can't move around. Personally, I would use a prime in that situation. I want reach, I want a large aperture, and I want a very fast focus. Depending on my location and how much they're moving around there are times a zoom might be nice, but the three things I mention above are more important to me. And likely most the action is happening in the same area in the center of the stage.

Re: Looking For the Right Lens

KingNine — Wed, 07 Jan 2015 18:54:38 GMT

Thanks for the reply. It eases my mind a lot. Since I can't move around I'm stuck at the mercy of the seat I happen to get and weather the fixed lens will be correct so I'd have to have at least 2 lenses to switch from. Your description is perfect by the way of what I'm dealing with. So from your comments do I understand that the camera is probably going to focus faster with a fixed lens over the zoom lenses?

Re: Looking For the Right Lens

Skirball — Wed, 07 Jan 2015 19:37:39 GMT

@KingNine wrote:
Thanks for the reply. It eases my mind a lot. Since I can't move around I'm stuck at the mercy of the seat I happen to get and weather the fixed lens will be correct so I'd have to have at least 2 lenses to switch from. Your description is perfect by the way of what I'm dealing with. So from your comments do I understand that the camera is probably going to focus faster with a fixed lens over the zoom lenses?

Not necessarily. I probably overstated it a bit in trying to make my point. But in general primes do usually have pretty snappy AF (specialty lenses like the 50 1.2 notwithstanding). And usually you can get really superb optics, with wide apertures and good AF, at a much lower price than you would for a zoom at a similar focal range. Of course, the tradeoff is the lack of zoom.

I was just trying to point out that primes are certainly capable of handling the situation you're in, there's just certain things to keep in mind, much as with anything in photography. Have a look next time you're at a sporting event, most of those huge white things you'll see are all prime lenses. Of course, they probably all have a second camera strapped to their neck with a 70-200 2.8 II on it. You can't get everything in photography, always a trade off.

Re: Looking For the Right Lens

ebiggs1 — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 14:27:30 GMT

"Since I can't move around I'm stuck at the mercy of the seat ..."

And herein lies the issue. Using prime lenses, you adjust to it to be able to use it. But using a zoom lens, it adjusts to you.

In the olden days we used primes because they were far better than the zooms around but that has since changed. Add to that fact, the way you display your photos today as opposed to yesterday and a zoom lens is the way to go.

Re: Looking For the Right Lens

KingNine — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 18:48:29 GMT

After speaking with you guys I have some good info I'm armed with now. I think the 18-135 STM lens is now a must for my video capabilities unless I go by a camcorder. From what I understand that lens will still take better pictures than either lens I have now if I choose to take pictures with it.

While I think I might get a "Nifty Fifty" lens to add to my arsenal I'm now looking at the zooms available to me. The lens that is standing out right now is the Tamron Lens mentioned in the first reply. It is the SP AF28-75mm F/2.8 XR Di lens. The reviews I've been reading seem to be loving this lens and even found a review or two that said they thought it was actually sharper than the Canon L lens. Not so sure I believe that but, hey, it must be pretty good with all the glowing reviews I've read. The thing it seems to be lacking is image stabilization. I would love to know if any of you have any experiece with this lens and if you think the stabilization is a deal breaker? I believe the Sigma equivilant had stabilization but doesn't seem to have as many rave reviews about it.

Re: Looking For the Right Lens

cicopo — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 19:11:59 GMT

I had an older version of that lens & YES it's a very good lens for the money. If you'd like I have a set of full file samples that can be downloaded (one at a time) by using the ACTIONS tab over the photos. Use the right arrow to move through them.

http://picasaweb.google.com/116179596240613012497/LensSamples#5276466247922745602

They were shot with the original 5D so they include the corner areas your crop body doesn't even use.

As a side note I've been a zoom user for a very long time & only added a few fast primes a couple of years ago. I barely use them but thanks to the 35 f1.4 L I was able to get a shot I'd been planning for 3 years and because there was no way to practice & no second attempt possible I started my shooting at f2.8 but quickly knew the shutter was open way too long. I wound down to what I thought was f1.4 but it turned out to be f1.6 but I did get one decent shot before the front of the train was blocked from view. It took ISO 6400 to get a shutter speed of 1/13 sec & the train is moving but slowly or I would have been wasting my time.

Re: Looking For the Right Lens

TCampbell — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 19:47:09 GMT

Ok, that's REALLY cool! LOVE the train shot (but then I'm a bit of a sucker for train shots.) I'm just impressed that someone fully decorated the train cars for the holidays and ran it on the rails.

Re: Looking For the Right Lens

cicopo — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 20:30:56 GMT

Canadian Pacific runs 2 trains cross country every year to raise funds / awareness for local food banks. One does Canada & another does a big area of the northern US. It has the decorations & it also has a very loud sound system playing Christmas music. When I decided to try that shot 3 years ago I didn't know how many cars it used, nor how wide the bridge was or even if I could find a clear view of the bridge. Fortunately the weather called for a clear but cold evening & I had time that day to scope out the area & decide on what lens might work. I thought I'd need a long lens & that's all I took but I quickly realized I needed WIDE so that night I only took a 24 & 35 plus the 24-105 thinking maybe the IS might be helpful. The good news is that the train stops about 1/2 mile after crossing the bridge but I only had roughly 10 seconds when all of it was in view & those decorations were a bit overpowering in the dark. My shooting position was an area of frozen swamp that wasn't quite frozen over in the afternoon.

Here's a link to the Facebook page on the train.

https://www.facebook.com/HolidayTrain/timeline

Re: Looking For the Right Lens

KingNine — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 21:14:03 GMT

I agree with T Campbell. That is REALLY cool! I love trains and this is just plain cool. Going to look at your sample pics from the lens now. Thanks!!

Re: Looking For the Right Lens

cicopo — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 23:31:31 GMT

Here the routes it followed this time & I suspect each year.

http://www.cpr.ca/en/community/holiday-train/schedule