topic Re: Shooting and lens recommendations for Historic Cities, cityscapes, etc... in EF & RF Lenses

Shooting and lens recommendations for Historic Cities, cityscapes, etc...

JustOmi — Fri, 20 Jun 2014 14:56:03 GMT

I'm currently trying to build my lens collection, and would love some advice on the "necessities" for the types of photography I plan to do.

I currently have:

1. Canon SL1

2. Canon T3i

..and I'm looking at either getting an EOS 60D or waiting til later on in the year to see if there's something else coming along.

My lens collection so far is:

1. EF-S 10-22mm

2. EF 28-135mm

3. EF 75-300mm 1:4-5.6 III

4. EF 70-300mm 1:4-5.6 IS USM

In the next few months, I'll need to shoot outdoor situations (wilderness, camping/hiking, exploration) and Historic city/Historic Tourism type cityscapes.

I've noticed my current Lens library is limited in supporting that second one. I guess I need to move down or to several different types of lenses. Lately I've been using the 10-22 and the 28-135 when there's enough "room" for me to shoot.

I'd like to get very creative/artistic with my shots. The historic cities I need to photograph are very "compact" (tight) and are really hard to get full shots of buildings, or landscape shots of city blocks. narrow alleys and street ways.

The cities i'm in are in the Southern United States, and lots of harsh light.

I'd LOVE some recommendations on lenses, as well as any tips on shooting buildings/statues/historic landmarks in cramped city situations!

Re: Shooting and lens recommendations for Historic Cities, cityscapes, etc...

Skirball — Fri, 20 Jun 2014 15:22:27 GMT

Sorry, but it sounds like you're looking for a lens to make your photography more creative. Not going to happen. Is there something specific that is lacking in your current setup that you want to address?

Your lenses cover most of the typical spectrum, from 10mm to 300, so focal length isn't an issue. It doesn't get much wider than 10mm, so if that's not cutting it in narrow alleys nothing short of a fisheye will. Harsh light is harsh light. Nothing you can really do about that other than post processing techniques like HDR.

Based on your lens setup the two gaps that I see are fast lenses and image quality. But seeing as how you didn't mention either of those I assume you're content on those elements.

Getting creative/artsy is going to be more up to you than your lens. Filters like a polarizer and/or neutral density filters are popular with landscape photographers. As is a tripod for long shutter speeds. Truthfully though, what really makes these types of photos stand out are a combination of good lighting, and great post processing.

Re: Shooting and lens recommendations for Historic Cities, cityscapes, etc...

JustOmi — Fri, 20 Jun 2014 15:37:58 GMT

Thanks for the response, Skirball!

I'd definitely appreciate some faster lens recommendations. Image Quality is "fair" (depending on the day, and the light) with my current monopod/tripod setup (using these older lenses), but I'd like some recommendations on faster lenses for the "tighter" cityscapes. It's just like any other touristy spot, you don't always have enough time to setup and stay where you want to shoot, or you have to be quick about your shots before someone sees "the kid with the big camera" and starts getting in the way.

Something I'd like to address isn't necessarily "artsy" but the ability to get longer, wider shots...which I feel are an artistic/creative element to photography.

I apologize for not being completely clear on that. Some insight: I'm trying to get a shot that is two historic street blocks long, but I'm limited in how far I can position myself. Because of this, I wanted to know if there is a wider or different type of lens I should be looking into.

If 10-22 "should" be getting these wider shots, I'm trying to determine if there is something else I'm not considering?

Thanks!

Re: Shooting and lens recommendations for Historic Cities, cityscapes, etc...

cuda719 — Fri, 20 Jun 2014 15:41:08 GMT

Just a thought but you may want to look at a Canon TS-E 17mm f/4L Tilt-Shift Lens it's pricy but provides tilt-shift functions to control perspective and correct convergence of lines within your frame. It is especially useful in architecture, landscape. The optical tilt mechanisms enable precise control of depth of field along with perspective control. B&H sells it for 2499 there's a $200 rebate till July 5, 2014. Or maybe you can rent one for the time you need it.

Re: Shooting and lens recommendations for Historic Cities, cityscapes, etc...

Skirball — Fri, 20 Jun 2014 17:25:49 GMT

JustOmi wrote:
I apologize for not being completely clear on that. Some insight: I'm trying to get a shot that is two historic street blocks long, but I'm limited in how far I can position myself. Because of this, I wanted to know if there is a wider or different type of lens I should be looking into.

If 10-22 "should" be getting these wider shots, I'm trying to determine if there is something else I'm not considering?

Thanks!

Nothing to appologise for. It's just very common that people come looking for advice on a new purchase simply because they want to buy a new lens, not because they necessarily have a need. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I usually try to point people back towards their needs as opposed to simply recommending an expensive lens.

Yes, the image quality of those lenses is only fair to good. Actually, the 10-22 is probably one of the better lenses you have. I own that lens, and I love it. I used it all the time when I shot on a crop sensor. If there's something too wide for that lens then you'll have to rethink your technique, because they don't get much wider. And anything wider will have serious distortion. I would recommend photo stitching - using software to stitch together multiple photos. Because of the distortion with wide angle you're going to want to use a more standard focal length when doing this, like 30+mm. If you had a 50mm prime I'd actually recommend that.

As for fast lenses. I think everybody should have at least one fast prime. But I love primes, not everybody does. The image quality from a prime is far better than any of your zooms. There are only a few zoom lenses that can come close to matching the quality of a prime, and they're quite expensive. Canon has a "nifty fifty", a 50mm 1.8. It's extremely popular because it's very cheap and offers pretty good IQ and reasonably fast aperture. Truthfully the lens is only OK, but it's so cheap that it's a great value. If you're willing to spend a bit more both Canon and Sigma make a 50mm 1.4. I'd probably recommend the Sigma, I'm not in love with my Canon. Although you seem to like wide, so perhaps a 35 or even the 28mm would suit you better. The nice thing about 50mm is that you can use it for portraits, family shots, general touristy shots, etc. It's a very versatile focal length.

You can look into fish eye lenses if the 10-22 just isn't wide enough for you and you don't like stitching. I never cared for them, but some love them. They give a very distorted view, which could certainly be considered artistic. I can't really offer recommendations, I've never strayed beyond the ultrawide.

Re: Shooting and lens recommendations for Historic Cities, cityscapes, etc...

Vetteran — Sat, 21 Jun 2014 07:17:39 GMT

Try taking multiple overlapping shots and stitching them together

using Microsoft ICE. (Other stitching progs are available.)

Probably best to avoid the 2 hours before and after noon.

(Or, avoid all the faff of carrying andchanging lenses and use an HS50 SX,

or the 60, soon to be available.)

Re: Shooting and lens recommendations for Historic Cities, cityscapes, etc...

Stephen — Sat, 21 Jun 2014 17:21:03 GMT

Hi JustOmi!

I ran across this while moderating today and thought you might find it interesting. He happens to mention your exact shooting scenario!

EF-101: Fisheye Lens

I hope that helps!

Re: Shooting and lens recommendations for Historic Cities, cityscapes, etc...

JustOmi — Mon, 23 Jun 2014 21:40:40 GMT

Thanks Skirball. One of my friends recommended either fish-eye, or taking it another direction with tilt-shift lenses. Unfortunately, the price point on TS seems to be just as "dramatic". Would you go this route, and if so, any recommendations on a possible third party or source for TS lenses?

Re: Shooting and lens recommendations for Historic Cities, cityscapes, etc...

cuda719 — Tue, 24 Jun 2014 13:09:40 GMT

I have a fisheye 8-15mm it's a special purpose lens I use it at wedding events, and for some landscape picures seems I need to defish photos at times because of the effect of the lens. Eveyone is different. I have rented he tilt and shift lens and like the effect more. It's a manual focus lens while the fisheye does autofocus.

Re: Shooting and lens recommendations for Historic Cities, cityscapes, etc...

TCampbell — Tue, 24 Jun 2014 14:44:55 GMT

Tilt-shift lenses aren't cheap -- also they're all manual focus only (you can configure the camera to chirp and blink a focus point as you pass through focus that the camera believes is accurate, but the lenses do not have focusing motors and because of the lenses need to be mechanically articulated and the ability to rotate the articulating axes there's really no way to run wiring through it (hence... manual focus only.)

The TS lenses are ideal for architecture because of their ability to correct for perspective distortions that show up in normal lenses.

Wide angle lenses stretch the depth of a scene. E.g. shoot a wide angle lens on an interior room and those rooms will look larger. Everything seems farther away when shot with a wide angle lens. But more importantly... how much farther away something appears to be depends on its true distance from the lens. Things relatively close to the lens seem just a little farther away. But things not so close to the lens will seem MUCH farther away. This effect causes buildings to appear to "lean" back. The "shift" component of a tilt-shift lens can correct for this.

See:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/thevirtualtim/6649815753/in/photostream/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/thevirtualtim/6649815113/in/photostream/

Both images are shot with the TS-E 24mm f/3.5L II. The top image is set with all controls neutral (no shift, no tilt). The bottom image is shift-corrected so that the building no longer appears to lean backward.

Keep in mind that the WIDER the angle of view on your lens, the STRONGER this depth-stretching effect (and hence the leaning effect) will become.

I have the EF 14mm f/2.8L USM II and I have to be careful when I use that lens because the leaning effect will be especailly strong... shooting down a street can render lampposts that are decidely tilting into or out of the frame depending on how I hold the camera.

All of these lenses are "rectilinear" in that they try to keep all "straight" lines in real life rendering "straight" in the image (but you will get perspective distortions). A fish-eye is completely different... this is a "curvilinear" lens -- meaning that it does NOT attempt to preserve straight lines in real life as rendering straight in your photos. All straight lines will curve with the exception of anything that happens to be going throug the center axis of the lens (that's the only point where the lines will remain straight.)

Re: Shooting and lens recommendations for Historic Cities, cityscapes, etc...

Skirball — Tue, 24 Jun 2014 14:53:00 GMT

@JustOmi wrote:
Thanks Skirball. One of my friends recommended either fish-eye, or taking it another direction with tilt-shift lenses. Unfortunately, the price point on TS seems to be just as "dramatic". Would you go this route, and if so, any recommendations on a possible third party or source for TS lenses?

Sorry to whoever mentioned it above, but I think a TS is a terrible recommendation. It's a unique lens with unique properties, and takes a bit of work to use well. It's a manual lens, not designed for walking around taking snapshots (yes, it can and is done). When I use one it's on a tripod, and I use a bubble level to align it, and pull out my laptop tethered to check focus. It doesn't have to be taken to that extreme, but that's what it was designed for. Planned shots for architectural or product photography. I wouldn't recommend it for someone with a small lens collection even at half the price.

Re: Shooting and lens recommendations for Historic Cities, cityscapes, etc...

TCampbell — Tue, 24 Jun 2014 17:32:37 GMT

A TS is very expensive and does take some careful planning to use. Definitely NOT for quick snapshots and a tripod is practically a requirement (especially for the "tilt" aspect because the Schleimpflug principal that governs how "tilt" controls the focus plane is sensitve to height and angles.) They are typically used for landscape and architecture.

I do use a tripod with mine. I do not use a bubble level (although I may actually use a tape-measure when I use mine ... but only when using the "tilt" -- not the "shift". It's much easier to "shift" than it is to "tilt").

A TS lens is going to be more of an artsy piece of gear... if you wanted to be very serious about your photgraphy (e.g. want gallery sized images and may consider selling images, etc. or doing commercial photography for architecture, etc.) then a TS would be a lens of choice.

For more typical walking-around-town lenses... better to go with a wide-zoom (e.g. this is an area where an 18-55mm kit probably is a very good lens... and for wider, go with a 10-22mm)

Re: Shooting and lens recommendations for Historic Cities, cityscapes, etc...

amfoto1 — Sat, 28 Jun 2014 18:39:19 GMT

As you have probably gathered by now, there are several ways to approach city shots like you want, depending upon the result you want to see in the final image.

A fisheye lens can give you the widest view... up to 180 degrees (watch out, it's easy to get your toes in the shot!). However, fisheye lenses will render many of the straight lines in your shot as strongly curved. You might be able to use "de-fishing" software to reduce this effect, but often end up with some loss of image quality and/or need to crop the de-fished image back to a rectangle and lose some of the wide effect of the lens. Still, check out fisheyes at the links other responses have provided and see if they'll do what you want.

An ultrawide, rectilinear lens is something you already have an excellent example of... your 10-22mm. This type lens can give upwards of 100 degree angle of view, is more "corrected" than the fisheye lens, though it still gives some curvature and perspective effects. It is possible to take multiple shots with a lens of this type (tho perhaps best not at it's widest setting), then stitch the images together. For example, the below composite image was made from three separate (handheld) shots with an ultrawide zoom at about 14 or 15mm, if memory serves....

There is some distortion in the above image... but the angle of view here is close to 180 degrees (the "bushes" in either lower corner are actually the top of a hedge that was running straight across in front of me when I was shooting). The blank area where I put my watermark was deliberate... the client wanted room to put a headline, to use this image as a banner on a web page. The three images were combined using Photohop's Photomerge. The images needed some overlap as well as some extra space at the extremes, because the final composite needed to be cropped to remove uneven edges. Using a single image made with a wider non-fisheye lens and cropped into a panorama wouldn't have been as wide and would have had more distortion effects.Using a less wide lens, possibly taking additional images and carefully moving the camera parallel to the subjects, would have been next to impossible handheld but would have reduced the amount of distortion.

Speaking of which, you might be interested in Gigapan, which is an extreme version of panaromic shots stitched together. It uses a robotic controller atop a tripod, sometimes taking as many as 200 or more shots, then combine them using special software. The result is a massive image (sometimes 1GB or more in size) with incredible detail. Check out some of the cityscapes in the galleries here: http://gigapan.com/galleries/landing_page

Photographer George Lepp (www.georgelepp.com) has done some Gigapan work, too... often scenics. I recall one of the Royal Gorge in Colorado he shot with a 70-200 lens (on a full frame camera). He's also made some macro images with the technology.

Whenever you mention shooting architecture, Tilt Shift lenses are going to come to mind. These are used to correct for a common perspective problem in architectural images.... "Keystoning" occurs when you shoot a building from a low angle (i.e., from the street or sidewalk), and the building appears to be tipping over backwards in the final image. Canon's TS-E lenses, the wide angle 17mm and 24mm in particular, are useful helping to correct for that effect. Some correction also is possible in post-processing software, but the results often aren't as good as when it's corrected at the time it's shot.

The Hotel Del Coronado in S. California isn't in danger of tipping over backwards, but sorta looks that way in the shot below, which I took from the only place I could shoot it that day, using an older 21mm lens (on a film camera, about the same as 13mm focal length with your 10-22mm lens on your camera)....

For the below, I used Photoshop's Perspecive control to mostly correct the vertical lines in the image. It's a little better, but there was some loss of resolution in parts of the image (not visible at Internet resolutions). Also notice how the horizontal lines and shapes of the building remain or start to look more skewed, the bench and sign in the foreground are more distorted (trapezoidally), and how the image needed to be cropped a bit tighter after the perspective correction....

Some day I'll go back and shoot it with the TS-E 24mm or 17mm lens, and it will be much better!

When I'm out shooting a city, I'll use an ultrawide much of the time for handheld stuff. But other times I'll take a TS-E lens and tripod, for a more careful shot. For detail shots I also often take a macro lens, which is a short telephoto. And for street life, activities, I'll use slightly wide to short telephoto prime lenses that offer fairly large aperture for low light shooting and are relatively small and unobtrusive.

This was shot with the 10-22mm....

This with a Tamron SP 60mm f2.0 macro lens...

You've got to be careful using wide angle lenses close to objects and people, due to the lens' inherent perspective and anamorphic distortion effects....

Whle a telephoto can be used to compress an image, as well as blur down foreground and background objects...

In just two lenses, your 10-22mm and 28-135mm, you've got a pretty darned good compact, walk-around kit that would be great shooting in cities. The 28-135mm is quite close focusing, too, for detail shots. Those should handle most situations.

Unless you want to get into something specialized like a fisheye, Gigapan or Tilt-Shift... Eventually you might want to add a low light prime such as an EF 28/1.8 USM (pretty compact, even with it's lens hood) or short tele such as an EF 50/1.4...

Hope this helps!

***********
Alan Myers

San Jose, Calif., USA
"Walk softly and carry a big lens."
GEAR: 5DII, 7D(x2), 50D(x3), some other cameras, various lenses & accessories
FLICKR & PRINTROOM

Re: Shooting and lens recommendations for Historic Cities, cityscapes, etc...

ScottyP — Fri, 18 Jul 2014 22:56:21 GMT

Not to go beyond the bounds of the question but you say you have 2 crop sensor cameras already and are thinking of adding another, a 60d. The 60d will not give better IQ than the T3i, as it has exactly the same sensor.

If you want to improve image quality consider a full frame body like the 6d. Add a nice prime lens to that full frame 6d and then you are talking about a nice improvement in IQ. At minimum consider shedding some of the mediocre zooms and pick up one good piece of glass.

Thats my 2 cents anyway.

Re: Shooting and lens recommendations for Historic Cities, cityscapes, etc...

cale_kat — Sat, 19 Jul 2014 00:52:56 GMT

Thanks for the message from the Alan Myers photography center...

Now, we're back. The OP photographer would be wise to take the money he/she is considering spending on the lens and use it to take a photography class.

Fast glass isn't necessary for daylight photography, situations not demanding of razor thin DOF or creamy bokeh. Good results are more a function of technique than equipment and most photographers don't even approach to utilizing expensive lenses to within 3/4 of the capabilities of this equipment.

Good luck and if you're feeling a little lens poor, don't. Just check out this recent post concerning the under-valued kit lens. 🙂

http://petapixel.com/2014/07/18/kit-lens-excellent-lens/