topic Re: What zoom to buy? in EF & RF Lenses

What zoom to buy?

Norm53 — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 15:02:43 GMT

I put up a bird feed at the edge of a woods about 80 feet from my lunch table behind a french door. My Canon EOS Rebel T3i with EF 75-300 mm 1:4-5.6 will not bring into focus the birds, large and small.

What lens do I need to buy that will do the job? Cost is no object.

Thanks, Norm

Re: What zoom to buy?

TCampbell — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 17:35:41 GMT

You can use the dimensional field of view calculator at this site: http://www.tawbaware.com/maxlyons/calc.htm

YOur camera has a 1.6 crop factor. So you'd enter a focal length guess (such as 400mm), the 1.6 crop factor, and the 80' shooting distance. Then click "compute"

At 400mm you'd get a dimensional field of view 4.5' wide by 3' tall.

At 600mm you'd get a dimensional field of view 3' wide by 2' tall.

Based on this, I've a sneaking suspicion that you'd likely prefer that longer focal length. Perhaps you should look at the Tamron or Sigma 150-600mm zoom offerings. I neither own nor have used either of those lenses. Someone else may be able to offer you more insight or you might wish to rent them to evaluate how they perform before buying.

Canon's only offers primes at 600mm or above. The longest zoom is the EF 200-400mm f/4L IS USM Extender 1.4x which has a built-in 1.4x extender that gets you to 560mm at f/5.6. It's a VERY nice lens, but not cheap.

Re: What zoom to buy?

Norm53 — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 18:48:17 GMT

Thank you for your prompt and informatiive reply.

Considering that the 150-600mm is $1,070 and the USM Extender is $11,000 at B & H, and not being able to appreciate what "extras" I receive for the additional $9,000, I will probably buy the former model.

Norm

Re: What zoom to buy?

trulandphoto — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 22:56:17 GMT

@Norm53 wrote:
I put up a bird feed at the edge of a woods about 80 feet from my lunch table behind a french door. My Canon EOS Rebel T3i with EF 75-300 mm 1:4-5.6 will not bring into focus the birds, large and small.

What lens do I need to buy that will do the job? Cost is no object.

Thanks, Norm

Since you seem to be interested in a particular setup why not just get an inexpensive prime lens ike the 400mm f/5.6. This could be paired with a 1.4x or 2x extender. If you're shooting a feeder you could stick the camera on a tripod, manual focus ahead of time and just click away when birds are present.

Re: What zoom to buy?

ScottyP — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 01:01:08 GMT

If cost is no object, rebuild your house closer to that bird feeder so you can be getting better IQ by shooting an excellent 70-200 lens. 😉

If cost has some bearing, just move the feeder closer to the house at little expense. The birds will still come in for a snack, believe me.

You out can make a simple blind so the birds won't see you by taping newspaper to the window, leaving only a hole to shoot through, and shoot right through the clean glass of the window.

You can work out some setup where you have a cut branch somewhere the feeder and birds will sit on it and you won't have the bird feeder in every shot. All you will see is a bird on a branch.

Re: What zoom to buy?

Norm53 — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 01:10:53 GMT

I need your help (or that of another poster) to understand what you are recommending. Does the 400 + 2x extender give me at least the same quality and magnification as the 600?

True, 90% of the time I could just press a button on the tripod that had already been prefocused, which would make shooting easy and fun. I like that setup, but I have two problems with it:

1. It's a tall metal rod with two feeders about 6 feet high, where the small birds feed and scatter the seed that drops to the ground. That prime or zoom can't focus on both the feeders and the ground, where there are interesting ground feeders that come along throughout the day. Seems I would need a wide-angle prime/zoom to catch the whole scene, which I could buy if it does the job and exists. (Same problem exists with the 600mm on a tripod, actually.) Alternatively, I could buy another camera with 2 tripods, one focused on the feeders and the other focused on the ground, which would, unfortunately, precipitate considerable mocking from my visiting family members.

2. There are occasional vultures that hang around seasonally at the top of the dead trees and an occasional hawk that wings about. (One pounced on a hapless sparrow the other day, which so surprised me I forgot to reach for the camera while it subdued its prey.) Can't do those scenes with a camera mounted on a tripod. Solution, of course, would be to buy another camera for the high birds.

Now I'm talking 3 cameras and two tripods? Maybe I need more help with this problem.

Norm

Re: What zoom to buy?

Norm53 — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 01:49:08 GMT

I thought of your second solution. Problem with moving the feeder closer to the house is that birds make a mess on the lawn. Backyard would look terrible. Could build a patio under the feeder and clean it up occasionally, but it would still be unsightly. Might even build a patio or gazebo out back eventually (it's a new home), which would scare away the birds. Finally, birds of prey, like hawks, stay away from homes.

Please explain what's below from your post because I don't understand it. I assume you are recommending another configuration.

Canon 6D, Canon T3i, EF 70-200mm L f/2.8 IS mk2; EF 24-105 f/4 L; EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS; EF 85mm f/1.8; Sigma 35mm f/1.4 "Art"; EF 1.4x extender mk. 3; 3x Phottix Mitros+ speedlites

Norm

Re: What zoom to buy?

RobertTheFat — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 14:53:14 GMT

@Norm53 wrote:
I thought of your second solution. Problem with moving the feeder closer to the house is that birds make a mess on the lawn. Backyard would look terrible. Could build a patio under the feeder and clean it up occasionally, but it would still be unsightly. Might even build a patio or gazebo out back eventually (it's a new home), which would scare away the birds. Finally, birds of prey, like hawks, stay away from homes.

Please explain what's below from your post because I don't understand it. I assume you are recommending another configuration.

Canon 6D, Canon T3i, EF 70-200mm L f/2.8 IS mk2; EF 24-105 f/4 L; EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS; EF 85mm f/1.8; Sigma 35mm f/1.4 "Art"; EF 1.4x extender mk. 3; 3x Phottix Mitros+ speedlites

Norm

Ah, Norm, you've gone and exposed yourself as a newbie.

Those items are part of Scott's signature; he's telling you what equipment he has.

Re: What zoom to buy?

ebiggs1 — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 14:54:33 GMT

"... closer to that bird feeder so you can be getting better IQ by shooting an excellent 70-200 lens ..."

The first part of this advise is good. Very good! The latter not so good. 80 feet is going to be a tall order even for a 600mm lens. Closer is always better than a bigger lens. IMHO, I don't consider any lens under 400mm viable for shooting birds. I also don't like the ef 400mm f5.6 with a tele converter on it. I do like the ef 300mm f4 with a tele converter if that is the way you want to go.

There is really only two options for you in lenses right now. One is the Sigma 150-600mm f/5-6.3 DG OS HSM Contemporary Lens for Canon EF. And two is the Tamron SP 150-600mm f/5-6.3 Di VC USD Lens for Canon. Both are a little under $1100 bucks.

There is an outstanding Canon option, the Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS II USM Lens. But at $2200 and 80 feet distance I wouldn't get it.

Below is two samples shot with the big tele zoom at 600mm.

This was shot with a 600mm tele at 20 feet. It is also heavily cropped in PS. Yeah, OK you say but a hummingbird is very small.

Below this shot of the heron was shot at 75 feet. This is a huge bird. Plus the photo is also cropped in PS.

People have the mistaken opinion that telephotos are designed to shoot things very far away. Like the Moon for example. Yes, they can do that but they actually are for making your subject larger in the frame. That means, a bird, very small, needs to be very close.

There you have it, my two cents and worth every penny. Get a big lens and get close.

Re: What zoom to buy?

ebiggs1 — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 14:59:44 GMT

"Please explain what's below from your post because I don't understand it. I assume you are recommending another configuration.

Canon 6D, Canon T3i, EF 70-200mm L f/2.8 IS mk2; EF 24-105 f/4 L; EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS; EF 85mm f/1.8; Sigma 35mm f/1.4 "Art"; EF 1.4x extender mk. 3; 3x Phottix Mitros+ speedlites

Norm"

That is his signature which includes his gear. Has nothing to do with recommendations for birding.

Re: What zoom to buy?

Norm53 — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 16:16:43 GMT

Never claimed to be anyone else. What's the point of the array if it doesn't solve my lense problem?

Norm

Re: What zoom to buy?

Norm53 — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 16:23:34 GMT

You: There is really only two options for you in lenses right now. One is the Sigma 150-600mm f/5-6.3 DG OS HSM Contemporary Lens for Canon EF. And two is the Tamron SP 150-600mm f/5-6.3 Di VC USD Lens for Canon. Both are a little under $1100 bucks.

Me: Beautiful shots. Dont want to move outside. Best I select one of the above if I don't receive any better advice in the meantime.

Norm

Re: What zoom to buy?

Norm53 — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 18:27:56 GMT

"There is really only two options for you in lenses right now. One is the Sigma 150-600mm f/5-6.3 DG OS HSM Contemporary Lens for Canon EF. And two is the Tamron SP 150-600mm f/5-6.3 Di VC USD Lens for Canon. Both are a little under $1100 bucks."

Ratings were the same (4.7) at google. Pros: Basically, unbeatable for the price. Cons: heavy. Both price at $879 online. Everyone here agreed that either would work as well with my Canon T3i?

Thanks to all posters for their valuable help.

Norm

Re: What zoom to buy?

ebiggs1 — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 21:20:54 GMT

"Both price at $879 online."

There is something wrong! Do not buy that lens at that price. It needs to be further scrutinized because something is wrong.

The two lenses mentioned are so close to each other they could be brothers. Your choice.

Take whatever ratings and reviews you read with a grain of salt. Neither of these lenses is heavy. Unless you are comparing them to a kit lens or a tiny 50mm prime.

The Sigma 150-600mm f/5-6.3 DG OS HSM Sports Lens for Canon EF lens is heavy. Maybe you read a review of it by mistake. It is a far better, higher quality lens that either of the afore mentioned lenses. But it is $2000.

I have all these three lenses. Well I did but I sold the C model Sigma in prefference of the S model.

This is my set up.

It is the Sigma 150-600mm f/5-6.3 DG OS HSM Sports Lens mounted on a 1D Mk IV body. My tripod is a Manfrotto 3046. A good tripod is absolutely a necessity.

Good luck and don't buy that cheaply priced lens with out checking it out.

Re: What zoom to buy?

Norm53 — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 22:48:09 GMT

"Good luck and don't buy that cheaply priced lens with out checking it out."

I'll take your seasoned advice and buy at B&H for $200 more to be sure I'm not stuck with a lemon.

One final question: Most of the specs are identical for both cameras, but Sigma has Aperture Range: f/5-6.3 to 22 and Tamron has Aperture Range: f/5 to f/40. Do these differences have any practical value considering my setup: 80 feet away at a lunch table behind a french door? (Can't use a tripod because it limits my shooting flexibility and I don't want to move closer outside.) IOW, knowing nothing about how these focal numbers relate to resolution or magnification, if I leave them on camera default, will my shots be of maximum quality?

Norm

Re: What zoom to buy?

RobertTheFat — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 13:42:04 GMT

@Norm53 wrote:
"Good luck and don't buy that cheaply priced lens with out checking it out."

I'll take your seasoned advice and buy at B&H for $200 more to be sure I'm not stuck with a lemon.

One final question: Most of the specs are identical for both cameras, but Sigma has Aperture Range: f/5-6.3 to 22 and Tamron has Aperture Range: f/5 to f/40. Do these differences have any practical value considering my setup: 80 feet away at a lunch table behind a french door? (Can't use a tripod because it limits my shooting flexibility and I don't want to move closer outside.) IOW, knowing nothing about how these focal numbers relate to resolution or magnification, if I leave them on camera default, will my shots be of maximum quality?

Norm

There is no practical value in the higher f-number. Remember that it's the ratio of the focal length to the diameter of the aperture. So the higher the f-number, the less light gets in and the longer the exposure required. Without a tripod, you'd never be able to get anywhere close to f/40.

Re: What zoom to buy?

Norm53 — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 14:54:00 GMT

Thanks for the education. I infer from it that because the camera will be hand-held, then the smallest f-no. is best. I just will have to remember to use the camera in full light, not twilight.

Norm

Re: What zoom to buy?

ebiggs1 — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 15:28:44 GMT

"... then the smallest f-no. is best."

Not necessarily. The best f-stop is usually one or two down from wide open. Example, the 150-600mm from either company has a max f-ratio of f5. I have found the best IQ for either is f8. And then you must realize the f-ratio changes as you zoom. So this will only be possible (f5) at a 150mm focal length. At 600mm the max if f6.3, however, f8 still seems to be very good.

A good strategy is to use the camera's Av mode and set it to f8.

The Sigma 150-600mm f/5-6.3 DG OS HSM Sports Lens has much better center IQ than either of the other two. Not to mention quicker AF. It can be used at f5 but it is better at f8, too. It is just not that much better then the other two when all are set to f8.

Warning: The Sigma 150-600mm f/5-6.3 DG OS HSM Sports Lens is very heavy. It is a tripod or monopod only lens. Unless you are a pro weight lifter. And if you weren't you will be after using this lens hand held for any length of time.

Re: What zoom to buy?

ebiggs1 — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 15:47:11 GMT

Another option that was glossed over is the Canon EF 300mm f/4L IS USM Lens. Yes it is only 300mm. Add to the fact I don't like tele converters but in certain cases they work. This is one where it works. The Canon 2x tele converter and EF 300mm f/4L IS USM Lens combine to make a 600mm f8 lens with IS ! This combo is very good. The only other tele combo I ever recommend is with the Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM Lens but then only with the Canon 1.4x, yields a 98-280, f4 lens.

But it is way too short for birding.

The Canon EF 300mm f/4L IS USM is a fantastic lens by itself. Very sharp and quick AF. Everybody raves about the Canon EF 400mm f/5.6L USM Lens and how sharp it is but most over look the 300mm, which is better. Plus the 300mm gives you IS and the 400mm doesn't. The EF 400mm f/5.6L USM Lens doesn't handle tele converters very well. So, if you must limit it to the 1.4x version. Remember no IS with that combo!

Re: What zoom to buy?

Norm53 — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 18:51:09 GMT

"At 600mm the max is f6.3, however, f8 still seems to be very good. A good strategy is to use the camera's Av mode and set it to f8."

Just learned from wiki that the f-no. is used to control the depth of field, the larger the number, the less fuzziness in the background and foreground. I'll start with Av @ f8, as you suggest, and then play around with it later to see what results I get.

Norm

Never underestimate a squirrel's determination.