topic Re: Which lens? EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM or EF 85mm f/1.4L IS USM - for indoor volleyball... in EF & RF Lenses

Which lens? EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM or EF 85mm f/1.4L IS USM - for indoor volleyball...

lilh — Sat, 02 Feb 2019 17:35:53 GMT

Or perhaps something else?

I'm looking for recommendations for the best lens option for indoor volleyball, typically shot in poorly-lit high school gyms. I'd also use it for indoor flag football, but this is not as critical as the volleyball. I hate noise! I recently upgraded from an 80D (still own) to a 5D Mk 4. I own the Canon 24-70 2.8L II. (also own the 100-400L IS II for outdoor baseball, softball, and football). While the 24-70 is a great lens, I do a lot of cropping (I prefer the close-ups). Even at ISO 3200 (or 600!), cropped images are just too noisy for my preference. I'm wondering if adding another lens will remedy this, and I'm considering one of the following:

EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM (I've heard the III is not worth the additional cost)

EF 85mm f/1.4L IS USM

Will the f2.8 at the longer focal length where I don't have to crop as much, give me enough light to limit the noise? Or should I go with the faster f1.4 and sacfrifice the 86-200 length and the zoom factor? I'm aware with this lens I'd need to watch the DOF at the faster fstop.

I also shoot in RAW and process (including noise reduction) w/LR and ocassionally PS.

I know I can rent to try, but an overwhelming consensus one way or the other might remedy the need for that.

Thanks in advance for recommendations!

Re: Which lens? EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM or EF 85mm f/1.4L IS USM - for indoor volleyball...

Waddizzle — Sat, 02 Feb 2019 17:56:34 GMT

The 5D4 should be pretty good at ISO 1600, and begin to drop off at ISO 3200. Can you post a sample photo?

Too much cropping can make noise more visible. I try not to crop by more than 1/3 horizontally and vertically, which results in a photo that is 1/9 the size of the original. LR can remove all of the noise, if you wanted, but you will sacrifice resolution and details.

Was the aperture setting with the noisy photos f/2.8?. I do not think you need to buy an expensive lens just to find out if a wider aperture lens would help resolve your noise issue. A noisy photo shot at f/2.8 on one lens will be just as noisy as a photo shot at f/2.8 with a different lens.

So, the EF 70-200mm won’t cure the noise, but it could reduce how much you would need to crop. How close to the court are you shooting? Shooting volleyball with a 24-70, you would practically need to be sitting in “the chair”.

Re: Which lens? EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM or EF 85mm f/1.4L IS USM - for indoor volleyball...

lilh — Sat, 02 Feb 2019 22:14:31 GMT

Thanks for the quick reply!

I agree with all you said, and I think the biggest issue (aside from being a noise snob) is the cropping factor. I went back and looked at some of my images and found the ones where I don't have to crop as much are somewhat better. There were even a few with ISO at 6400 that were not too bad as they were in better focus due to a faster shutter speed. I also have to admit I've only had the 5D for a few weeks and all shots have been on the flag football field as volleyball tournaments have not started yet. Lighting should be sightly better at volleyball due to the wood floors providing a better reflective surface. The flag football field is green turf and it's pretty dark in there. I'm definitely going to add one more lens as I want something that fits in between the 2, so I'd still like to know which one would serve me the best...

Re: Which lens? EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM or EF 85mm f/1.4L IS USM - for indoor volleyball...

ebiggs1 — Sat, 02 Feb 2019 22:48:11 GMT

This is easy. Buy the Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS III USM Lens not even a choice. The Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS III USM Lens may not be a great upgrade form the Mk II but if you are buying first time get the Mk III. It has a new lens coating that is impressive. Not that big a deal from the Mk II but it is for the first time buyer.

Here is the rule for sports, never use a prime when a zoom will work. However are you forgetting the main most important three things about sports photography? Yes, it is location, location and location. Yeah where you shoot from is paramount.

I did the corporate challenge last yest in KC. I was allowed to be right at the boundary of the courts. Got some great shots with my 1D Mk IV and ef 24-70mm f2.6L II

Re: Which lens? EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM or EF 85mm f/1.4L IS USM - for indoor volleyball...

Waddizzle — Sun, 03 Feb 2019 00:33:34 GMT

@lilh wrote:
Thanks for the quick reply!

I agree with all you said, and I think the biggest issue (aside from being a noise snob) is the cropping factor. I went back and looked at some of my images and found the ones where I don't have to crop as much are somewhat better. There were even a few with ISO at 6400 that were not too bad as they were in better focus due to a faster shutter speed. I also have to admit I've only had the 5D for a few weeks and all shots have been on the flag football field as volleyball tournaments have not started yet. Lighting should be sightly better at volleyball due to the wood floors providing a better reflective surface. The flag football field is green turf and it's pretty dark in there. I'm definitely going to add one more lens as I want something that fits in between the 2, so I'd still like to know which one would serve me the best...

Shooting indoor sports can be as much a challenge for the gear as it is for the photographers. With a little practice, trial and error, it is not too hard to find your own “best practice” to get the shots that you want.

I am by no means an expert on shooting indoor sports, but you cannot go too far wrong with a high shutter speed. What works best for me is shooting in Manual mode with ISO set to Auto. I then go into the menus and cap Auto ISO at some value. This gives me complete, independent control over SS and Av, while the camera sets ISO for the exposure. The only tweaking that is needed is dialing when AEC when I need it.

I have found using AEC can be beneficial. I shoot with a 6D2 in low light scenarios. When ISO wants to go to 25600, or higher, then I like to dial in up to one stop of negative AEC to stay within the 12800 cap put on the Auto ISO. If I need more than one stop of negative AEC, then I start slowing down the shutter speed.

By using negative AEC, it helps to minimize the noise in the shadows, and LR can bring up the highlights, which mask noise better than shadows, in post. Most of the time, losing details in the dark areas of low light shots is a “don’t care condition”. I look at it as being somewhat equivalent to background blur. As long as my subject is fairly well lit up in highlights, I am not as concerned about any loss of the details in shadows.

Re: Which lens? EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM or EF 85mm f/1.4L IS USM - for indoor volleyball...

lilh — Sun, 03 Feb 2019 02:48:10 GMT

Thank you for your reply! Valid point about the III vs the II lens. Everything I read about the III version was comparing it to the II, but you're right - since I'm not upgrading I might as well start with the most recent version.

And re the location - for the most part, I can get pretty close to the courts, but they play in a variety of venues all over New England and that may not always be the case. And with the flag football, I can stand directly on the side line and can move up and down the field, but I can't run up and down it in the middle of the plays so the 70mm won't reach far enough for the long passes. (But again, the volleyball is more important than the flag football).

You've given me more to think about - thanks again!

Re: Which lens? EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM or EF 85mm f/1.4L IS USM - for indoor volleyball...

lilh — Sun, 03 Feb 2019 03:00:33 GMT

Waddizzle,

This is exactly how I started shooting indoors with the 5D - Manual mode with Auto ISO. But I capped my ISO at a much lower setting - the thought of it ever spiking up to 12800 makes me - 'shudder.' I have not tried the negative AEC, but I will next time out. I feel the same way about the shadow areas - I'd rather lose detail there than deal with noise.

Thanks for the tip!

Re: Which lens? EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM or EF 85mm f/1.4L IS USM - for indoor volleyball...

Waddizzle — Sun, 03 Feb 2019 11:38:25 GMT

@lilh wrote:
Waddizzle,

This is exactly how I started shooting indoors with the 5D - Manual mode with Auto ISO. But I capped my ISO at a much lower setting - the thought of it ever spiking up to 12800 makes me - 'shudder.' I have not tried the negative AEC, but I will next time out. I feel the same way about the shadow areas - I'd rather lose detail there than deal with noise.

Thanks for the tip!

Oh, I do not use ISO 12800. In practice, I try to stay at or below ISO 3200. The ISO12800 cap is just a backstop, plus it gives some room to “cheat” when conditions are really bad.

The above photo was taken one night when I was shooting everything with -1 Ev of AEC. Most shots were ISO 10000 to ISO 12800, after compensaton. Focus is on the ball carrier. I am guessing shutter speed was around 1/400.

Re: Which lens? EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM or EF 85mm f/1.4L IS USM - for indoor volleyball...

lilh — Sun, 03 Feb 2019 14:26:34 GMT

Waddizzle - this is a great shot - I'm impressed! Do you mind if I ask what lens you used and whether or not this is cropped? Football is my favorite sport to photograph and I crop all my shots. But my grandson is only 10 so it will be awhile before I have to shoot any high school night games. Although he does play a few night baseball games so I'm hoping to get better at those this year. Another reason I am leaning towards the 70-200 lens.

Thanks for sharing that image!

Re: Which lens? EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM or EF 85mm f/1.4L IS USM - for indoor volleyball...

Waddizzle — Sun, 03 Feb 2019 14:46:51 GMT

@lilh wrote:
Waddizzle - this is a great shot - I'm impressed! Do you mind if I ask what lens you used and whether or not this is cropped? Football is my favorite sport to photograph and I crop all my shots. But my grandson is only 10 so it will be awhile before I have to shoot any high school night games. Although he does play a few night baseball games so I'm hoping to get better at those this year. Another reason I am leaning towards the 70-200 lens.

Thanks for sharing that image!

Thank-you. That was the 6D2 and the EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS II USM. Yes, the shot has been cropped. I was near the goal line, and the play was around mid-field. Call it between the 40s. In fact, the SS may have been as slow 1/200. I would need to check my archives when I get back home.

Re: Which lens? EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM or EF 85mm f/1.4L IS USM - for indoor volleyball...

ebiggs1 — Sun, 03 Feb 2019 14:47:28 GMT

"... for the most part, I can get pretty close to the courts,..."

What does this mean? It is exactly why you want a zoom. But if you are shooting very far from courtside your shots will not be very good. If you are just after a parent shooting their kid in a sport, they may be OK. If you are that varied in your shooting location you need everything from 24 to 200mm. Courtside, 50mm is long enough!

About your settings, it is best to set your camera with certain fixed settings. I typically used Av mode and let the camera select the fastest SS it can. All lighting will be different. It is just the way it is. I always avoid using Auto ISO.

Re: Which lens? EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM or EF 85mm f/1.4L IS USM - for indoor volleyball...

lilh — Sun, 03 Feb 2019 15:59:08 GMT

Waddizzle -

"...That was the 6D2 and the EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS II USM. Yes, the shot has been cropped."

Now I'm even more thrilled. Since I already own that lens, I'm thinking I'll be able to get better shots with the 5D than I could with the 80D (although it's a very nice crop frame, just not as good in low light). Maybe not at our night baseball games, as those lights are horrible, and it's hard to get close to the action. But with the tips you've provided, I'm certainly going to try! Much appreciated!

Re: Which lens? EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM or EF 85mm f/1.4L IS USM - for indoor volleyball...

lilh — Sun, 03 Feb 2019 16:24:54 GMT

ebiggs1 - "... for the most part, I can get pretty close to the courts,..."

"What does this mean?"

It means there are some tournaments where I can stand right on the court boundaries, but some where I have to stay further back. I like to experiment with location - I've even climbed up to the top of the un-open bleachers in order to shoot down on the girls as they look up at the ball. Definitely need a better zoom for that...

As far as settings - I've used both Av mode and Tv mode depending on whether I wanted to focus on background blur or movement. I just started experimenting with Manual mode and capped Auto ISO which, so far, is turning out to be a nice alternative. One of the joys of photography - always more to learn!

Thanks again!

Re: Which lens? EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM or EF 85mm f/1.4L IS USM - for indoor volleyball...

ebiggs1 — Mon, 04 Feb 2019 15:56:53 GMT

" I can stand right on the court boundaries,..."

If you are right at court side 70mm will probably be too long. And, not able to zoom shorter you need to consider the ef 24-70mm f2.8L also or a similar lens. The ef 50mm f1.2L could be that alternative too. Oh, wait, did I just suggest a prime? Yes in certain instances they make sense.

Re: Which lens? EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM or EF 85mm f/1.4L IS USM - for indoor volleyball...

lilh — Mon, 04 Feb 2019 22:29:25 GMT

Hi ebiggs1,

"And, not able to zoom shorter you need to consider the ef 24-70mm f2.8L also or a similar lens."

Fortunately, I already own that lens and it is wonderful. I expect to get even better results with it now that I have the 5D. I just know there will be venues that won't afford the opportunitly to get that close. With 3 grandkids all on some type of traveling team, the number of volleyball tournaments I can get to may be limited. And with my luck, the ones I get to will be the ones where I can't get close enough! I think I'm just trying to convince myself that I 'need' the 70-200. 🙂 Everybody raves about it!

Thanks so much for you advice. I really appreciate it!

Re: Which lens? EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM or EF 85mm f/1.4L IS USM - for indoor volleyball...

ebiggs1 — Tue, 05 Feb 2019 16:06:02 GMT

"I'm just trying to convince myself that I 'need' the 70-200."

Oh, OK, ah,hum, here is my recommendation. In order to shoot *insert name* sports you absolutely need the EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS III USM Lens. It is not possible without that lens. In fact it should be a law that all photographers have one. Go buy it today.

My best advice is get as close as you can. Close always wins out over everything else. Use Raw format and post edit in PS/LR. Those are fixed for best results. Mandatory! Do not deviate. I use Av so the fastest SS can be used which is usually, but not always, best. I like to fix my ISO and have never been a fan of Auto ISO. Just a hold over from the olden days of film. I want to know what the camera is doing.

Re: Which lens? EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM or EF 85mm f/1.4L IS USM - for indoor volleyball...

lilh — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 01:04:35 GMT

"In order to shoot *insert name* sports you absolutely need the EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS III USM Lens. It is not possible without that lens. In fact it should be a law that all photographers have one. Go buy it today."

Now that's a law I could get behind! The 100-400L IS II gets amazing shots on the football field (real, not flag), and baseball and softball diamonds. Especially when I have to shoot from the outfield. When I get the 70-200, pairing it with that lens and the 24-70 should give me the complete package!

Thanks again!

Re: Which lens? EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM or EF 85mm f/1.4L IS USM - for indoor volleyball...

wq9nsc — Thu, 07 Feb 2019 03:10:10 GMT

Another vote for the 70-200 2.8 🙂

I have so far avoided volleyball but I shoot a lot of basketball and also indoor soccer (with truly abysmal lighting).

For basketball I keep the 70-200 2.8 on the 1DX 2 and the 24-70 2.8 on the 1DX. Probably 80% of the shots I use will be from the 70-200 but there will be some where 70 is still too long.

For indoor soccer the best setup for me is the 300 2.8 prime on the 1DX 2 and with the 70-200 on the 1DX and for outdoor depending upon field I will use either a 300 or 400 prime backed by the 70-200. The 70-200 is indepsensible for me.

No matter which lens you have mounted it won't be perfect all of the time but odds are the 70-200 2.8 will be an excellent choice for the majority of situations. It will be your first choice for most indoor sports events.

Indoor soccer at ISO 10,000 is a challenge, basketball at 4,000 is much nicer.

Rodger

Re: Which lens? EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM or EF 85mm f/1.4L IS USM - for indoor volleyball...

lilh — Thu, 07 Feb 2019 03:36:31 GMT

Thanks Roger! Sounds like you have an amazing set-up. I'd have to hit the lottery to afford those lenses!

The basketball shot is nice considering it was at 4000 ISO. I'm also impressed with the color. That's the next area I need to improve. I can recognize good color when I see it in other photos, but I have a hard time 'seeing' it in my own and I'm constantly adjusting the WB and HSL sliders. So much to learn!!

Re: Which lens? EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM or EF 85mm f/1.4L IS USM - for indoor volleyball...

wq9nsc — Thu, 07 Feb 2019 11:50:46 GMT

Thanks and I am far from great at color adjustment. The indoor soccer arena is the worst because the lighting is insufficient and they use a mixture of mercury vapor and sodium vapor lighting, those sources have very different color temperatures not enhanced by the green hue from the turf. Some of the lights are aimed directly at the field and others bounce off the dirty white of the dome roof.

Depending upon where the action takes place it is common to have two players in a shot with the same skin tone but with very different rendition depending upon which light predominates in their small section of the playing field.

Volleyball should be intertesting to photograph. I got pulled into sports when I started coaching my daughter's soccer team when she was very young and continued through middle schoo and I started doing some game photography while coaching. I did a few of the girl's high school games and then some of the boys I had coached earlier wanted good quality photos also and somehow that morphed into football and basketball 🙂 Football is the easiest to shoot because the plays are more predictable and you do get a chance to setup between plays, with basketball I still have an uncanny ability to get a great shot of a scene just after the ball has exited.

Rodger