topic Re: Lense Choice for Product Photography in EF & RF Lenses

Lense Choice for Product Photography

sarafina — Mon, 02 Mar 2015 23:39:39 GMT

Hi,

I have been working for a LONG time with my trusty Canon RebelXT. Sadly the last time I disasembled it to clean it I shorted out the flash battery and fried it.

So I have just upgraded to a 5D Mark II. I have been using for my work, mostly, a basic 18-55 and a 100mm Macro.

I shoot on a translucent table 24" Square. Everything is for white background. Often I am shooting glass or clear items. I usually shoot between 18" and 4' away from my subject.

I have been using the macro for the tighter shots on things in the 1" to 6" size range and then moving to the 18-55 for larger items and groupings.

The 18-55 will not mount on the 5D so I need to replace it with something that will give me good results in the set up I am describing.

I would appreciate suggestions on what lense would complement the 100 Macro.

Thanks

Re: Lense Choice for Product Photography

RobertTheFat — Mon, 02 Mar 2015 23:46:52 GMT

You don't need a fast lens or a lot of range, so how about the 24-70mm f/4L? Its price has fallen dramatically since it first came out, and I don't recall hearing anything bad about it.

Re: Lense Choice for Product Photography

sarafina — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 00:25:10 GMT

This is what you are suggesting?

[MOD NOTE: Link removed per FORUM GUIDELINES]

Re: Lense Choice for Product Photography

sarafina — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 01:10:06 GMT

Sorry, The forum guidelines did not mention not being able to posts links. I'll keep that in mind in the future.

Sara

Re: Lense Choice for Product Photography

TCampbell — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 06:11:55 GMT

I don't know what you linked... but it depends on the link.

Here's the lens he was referring to:

http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/ef_lens_lineup/ef_24_70mm_f_4l_is_usm

Canon makes an EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM II - it's about $2k (list) - so the f/4 version (which also adds image stabilization) is about half the price. The f/2.8 version is probably not necessary for product photography since you control the lighting (you don't need the extra stop of light gathering capability of an f/2.8 lens) and you also probably don't need the shallower depth of field that the f/2.8 lens can product.

Incidentally, Canon is offering a $200 mail-in rebate on the f/4 lens, so you can get it for about $800 (I was surprised because the rebate on the f/2.8 version... which costs twice as much... is only $150.)

Re: Lense Choice for Product Photography

RobertTheFat — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 13:23:40 GMT

@sarafina wrote:
Sorry, The forum guidelines did not mention not being able to posts links. I'll keep that in mind in the future.

Sara

For a forum that is supposedly user-driven, the guidelines, and their enforcement by the moderators, are surprisingly fussy.

Re: Lense Choice for Product Photography

TCampbell — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 18:22:39 GMT

In the "participation" section, the guidelines indicate that may remove posts for a variety of reasons... one of which is this reason:

Promotion of third party products, promotions, websites, organizations, goods or services.

I used to moderate another photography forum... I can share that it is astonishing how many people would create a new user account primarily for the purpose of making posts intended to drive traffic over to some other website (often not even a photography-related website.) Banning users was a daily process.

We had to use some moderator discretion to decide what sort of links to block. A link to a website that doesn't sell anything e.g. if you want to link to an education article you found on some site which explains some photography concept... that's fine. Links to websites that sell products had to be removed... though a link to a well-known gear store for purposes of asking about a product (e.g. B&H, Adorama, Amazon) would probably not be removed. We also typically removed links wherein someone entered a photo-contest that allows internet voting, and joined the forum for the purpose of soliciting votes ("vote for me") even though those people weren't actually selling anything (it's supposed to be a "photo" contest... not a "popularity" contest. Please try to win based on your "photographic" skills.) Anyway... if a forum didn't do anything to fitler this stuff... it'd be a mess.

Re: Lense Choice for Product Photography

ebiggs1 — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 23:02:03 GMT

Sara,

This has been stated many times here and still true, the best buy in a Canon pro "L" lens is the EF 24-105mm f4 IS.

This is a great lens, I have two of them. You can find "white box" versions that are a very good buy. Usually in the $700 to $750 range and brand new and with full Canon warranty.

Comparing it to the 18-55mm will be like night and day difference.

Re: Lense Choice for Product Photography

sarafina — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 01:04:28 GMT

First, thank you all, for the input! Can anyone help me understand the difference between the actual functionality of the 24-70 and the 24-105?

When I was looking at the 24-70 I saw some different versions, one a wide angle. I was concerned at first that this would distort my images, but now it seems as if that's just one version, not all of this lense model are wide angle.

One of the things I struggle with is adjusting everything so that I get pretty good depth of field. Having just the front of the product in focus, or just the back isn't good. I need the testure and detail to pop.

I am hoping with this 5DII being synced to the laptop so I can see the shot on a big screen will help me with this. Of course my remote shutter and cables from my Rebel don't work on this one, new HDMI cable on it's way to me now.

And no worries about the moderation. I am very familiar with the issues of a busy forum and the spammy joiners that have to be weeded out. I had linked to a Craigslist page with the recomended lense on it, which didn't seem like a likely target for a spammer. But whatever, just joined, new member, few posts, I get it... ; -)

It's going to be an interesting learning curve with this new beastie!

Re: Lense Choice for Product Photography

RobertTheFat — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 15:21:27 GMT

@sarafina wrote:
First, thank you all, for the input! Can anyone help me understand the difference between the actual functionality of the 24-70 and the 24-105?

When I was looking at the 24-70 I saw some different versions, one a wide angle. I was concerned at first that this would distort my images, but now it seems as if that's just one version, not all of this lense model are wide angle.

One of the things I struggle with is adjusting everything so that I get pretty good depth of field. Having just the front of the product in focus, or just the back isn't good. I need the testure and detail to pop.

I am hoping with this 5DII being synced to the laptop so I can see the shot on a big screen will help me with this. Of course my remote shutter and cables from my Rebel don't work on this one, new HDMI cable on it's way to me now.

And no worries about the moderation. I am very familiar with the issues of a busy forum and the spammy joiners that have to be weeded out. I had linked to a Craigslist page with the recomended lense on it, which didn't seem like a likely target for a spammer. But whatever, just joined, new member, few posts, I get it... ; -)

It's going to be an interesting learning curve with this new beastie!

The argument in favor of the 24-105 is that it's a more versatile lens. While it should suit your needs for product photography, it's really intended to be a "walking around" lens for a full-frame camera. So if you wanted to take it out and use it for street photography, its longer reach would be a plus.

The argument in favor of the 24-70 is that all else equal, a lens with a longer zoom range is apt to have slightly more distortion at the long and/or short ends and somewhat lower image quality overall. So if you don't need the reach of the 24-105, why subject yourself to those possible drawbacks?

But in truth, both should be good lenses for your stated purpose, and you're unlikely to notice any practical difference. Like Ernie Biggs, I own the 24-105 and share his favorable opinion of it. I've never even seen the 24-70, but it seems to get good reviews. If you choose, for whatever reason, one of those two lenses, you probably won't end up thinking you've made a mistake. And there are, of course, many other lenses that could do the job for you as well.

Re: Lense Choice for Product Photography

ebiggs1 — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 16:03:49 GMT

Sara,

This from "The Snowman" is spot on, "But in truth, both should be good lenses for your stated purpose, and you're unlikely to notice any practical difference."

However, depending on exactly how demanding your needs are, the EF 24-70mm f2.8 L is the best lens of this type made on the planet. It has no peers. Does that matter to you? It is twice as expensive. Unless you can be safe and/or you can test the lens thourghly don't use Craigslist.

I am a little confused, or you are, about what you mean "wide angle". Any 24mm lens on a 5D Mk II is going to be wide angle.

It does not matter if it is 24-70mm or 24-105mm or 24-120mm. 24mm is 24mm is 24mm and pretty wide.

You said, "I am hoping with this 5DII being synced to the laptop ..."

I hope you have Lightroom 5 as this with a 5D Mk ii would be very easy to do and you would have some editing features right there. You are shooting RAW? Of course you are, right?

Re: Lense Choice for Product Photography

ebiggs1 — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 16:06:58 GMT

Oh, BTW, 24mm on a 5D Mk II will have great DOF. If you have the proper light, 24mm at f8 DOF should be very good. You should try to keep the product in the center line of the lens, though.

Re: Lense Choice for Product Photography

TCampbell — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 17:28:57 GMT

@sarafina wrote:
First, thank you all, for the input! Can anyone help me understand the difference between the actual functionality of the 24-70 and the 24-105?

When I was looking at the 24-70 I saw some different versions, one a wide angle. I was concerned at first that this would distort my images, but now it seems as if that's just one version, not all of this lense model are wide angle.

One of the things I struggle with is adjusting everything so that I get pretty good depth of field. Having just the front of the product in focus, or just the back isn't good. I need the testure and detail to pop.

I am hoping with this 5DII being synced to the laptop so I can see the shot on a big screen will help me with this. Of course my remote shutter and cables from my Rebel don't work on this one, new HDMI cable on it's way to me now.

The focal length determines if a lens is wide-angle vs. normal vs. telephoto. In other words, at the 24mm focal length, all lenses are "wide angle" on the 5D II body. It's not as if one 24mm is "wide" and another is not.

If a lens is zoomed to the 43mm point on the 5D II body, then that focal length is considered "normal" -- meaning not telephoto nor wide-angle. Anything shorter than 43mm is going in the wide-angle direction. Anything above 43mm is going in the telephoto direction.

I think I count as many as eleven different Canon EOS lenses that can be used with the 5D II (so we're ignoringa ll the "EF-S" lenses that only work on cameras with the smaller APS-C size sensor). But of those... several have a zoom range where both the shortest focal length and longest focal length in the range are all on the "wide angle" range. e.g. there's an 11-24mm, two 16-35mm lenses (an f/2.8 and an f/4 version) and a 17-40mm.

That may be what you were thinking of when you mentioned you learned that one lens was a "wide angle".

Because some of the other choices offer a zoom range which goes from wide to telephoto in the same lens. That would include the two 24-70mm zooms (the f/2.8 and f/4 version) and the two 24-105mm lenses (the f/4 version and the variable f/3.5-5.6)

There are a LOT of qualities that we can fuss over when we select a lens. The more expensive lenses are better -- though it might be difficult to tell just looking at the specs. But some specs are obvious.

The focal ratio stated in the lens named (e.g. the "f/4" in the name: EF 24-70mm f/4L IS USM) is the lowest focal ratio the lens can achieve (they can all use higher focal ratios when needed... the question is how low can they go when needed.). That ratio represents the diameter of the clear opening through which light can enter the lens divided into the focal length of the lens. In other words if you zoom to a 100mm focal length, the aperture openging would be 25mm wide (because 25 divides into 100 exactly 4 times. Hence "f/4".) BTW, if you zoom out to the 24mm end, it means the aperture opening would now be 6mm across... for the same reason (6 divides into 24mm exactly 4 times.)

When a lens is f/2.8 (those will be more expensive) it means the aperture is larger and thus divides into the focal length fewer times. That larger aperture means that more light can enter the lens when the shutter is open. Of course you can't just make the aperture bigger without making the whole lens diameter bigger and that means all the glass elements inside have to be bigger. That also means the lens will weigh more. So you do get more light... but it drives up the cost of making the lens and it's heavier.

I also mentioned there was one lens with a variable focal ratio. The lower-priced lenses tend to have variable focal ratios. What this means is the widest focal ratio it can achieve at the wide-angle end is not the same as the widest it can achieve at the long end. As you zoom, the focal length diminishes. It's easier to make such a lens and that means the manufacturer can offer the lens at a more affordable price. But if you could afford any lens you want, you'd probably "want" the lens with the lowest possible focal ratio.

Some lenses are "sharper" than others. It turns out there's no single quality called "sharpness" even though that's the term everyone tosses about. In reality sharpness is the sum total of a whole lot of factors. Most lenses are optically their "sharpnest" near the center axis and that quality diminishes as you get farther from center (e.g. corners are usually the weakest.) But even that varies by the f-stop you select when you take the shot.

The EF 24-70mm f/4L IS USM will typically look a little more crisp than the EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM -- as long as you're comparing like-for-like focal lengths. So while the 24-70 looks better in the 24-70 range than the 24-105 in the 24-70 range... the 24-105 has that focal length range from 70-105 that isn't available on the 24-70.

The 24-105 is a nice "walking around" general purpose lens. If you don't necessarily know what you might want to photograph, but you've got the 24-105 f/4 lens... chances are that lens will be up to the task.

Sound like there's no "right" answer to which lens to choose? That's why Canon makes more than one lens. The whole point of the SLR & DSLR camera concept is that you can swtich lenses because there's never a "best" lens for everything. But given one particular subject you want to shoot in one given set of shooting conditions... there is a "best" lens.

As for syncing to the laptop... you probably don't want an HDMI cable. You probably just want to use the USB cable. The supplied USB cable will work (and its the very same cable that your Rebel would have used). I think it's 6' long. That can be a bit short for tethering purposes because if you want to move your camera around, you've got to move the computer too ... the "leash" is a bit short.

You can buy a longer tethering cable. I picked up a 15' cable from Amazon (search for "15-Feet USB 2.0 A Male to Mini-B 5pin Male") There are several from which to choose. A company called "Tether Tools" makes a bright orange colored cable. Functionally no different than any other... but it's orange so you're hopefully less likely to not notice it and trip on it. But they wanted $36 for "orange" and I picked up a black cable from another brand for less than $7. Again... functionally identical (both have the same length, same ends, both have the "ferrite" on the cable. etc.) When using cables to tether... make SURE nobody trips on it or you can damage the plug on the camera (You may want to clamp the cable to the tripod with a velcro strap or gaffers tape so that if someone does trip on the cable... it yanks against the tripod and not the camera socket. I don't care if I damage a $7 cable. I DO care if I damage a $1500-3500 camera.)

The tethering cable means you can use something like Adobe Aperture in "tethering" mode (EOS Utility also supports tethering). You take the shot and within 1 or 2 seconds, the image is already imported to the computer so you can inspect it. I use a device called the "CamRanger" which allows me to do wireless tethering to my 5D III -- even though the camera doesn't have WiFi. It's a small module that I clip to the tripod and it has a very short USB cable to connect to the camera. As I shoot, it grabs the image from the camera and transmits to the computer wirelessly (I can also remotely control the camera.)

Re: Lense Choice for Product Photography

sarafina — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 23:41:48 GMT

Ok, I am starting to work with this baby finally. Family drama has had me out of town much of he time for the last 6 weeks.

I have the eos solutions installed, the cable and am starting to work with it.

I am finding that the autofocus is having issues. Is there something about using the tether that causes issues with the focus? I am getting a really shallow depth of field.

Currently I am using the EF Macro 100 lense. Any ideas why this would be happening?

Re: Lense Choice for Product Photography

ebiggs1 — Sat, 25 Apr 2015 14:02:48 GMT

How long is the USB cable? And is it a top brand? You may need to get a powered USB cable. They are all I use when thethering.

Re: Lense Choice for Product Photography

sarafina — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 20:24:57 GMT

cable is a 3' powered samsung.

I am starting to think that the problem isn't the tethering. It seems to struggle even when not tethered. I am guessing (hoping) it is user error. The camera is just back from a canon service so it should all be functioning properly.

Re: Lense Choice for Product Photography

TCampbell — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 21:26:41 GMT

One concern that I have about USB cables... there are so many devices that use a USB "charging" cable, that there are now lots of cables floating around that actually ONLY provide the "power" pins and don't have all the connections running from end to end.

Your camera actually only uses the "data" and does not use USB power.

So if you happen to get the wrong type of cable... you'd never get tethering to work. The cable that comes with the camera will do tethering correctly.

There are long "tethering" cables... here's one: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00827MK3S/

But I think $36.95 is a bit much to pay for a basic USB cable. I'm guessing they charge this much because it is colored orange.

So here's the one I bought: http://www.amazon.com/Monoprice-15-Feet-Mini-B-Ferrite-105450/dp/B002KL8N6A/

It was all of $6.27 and is basically identical to the one above... but it is black instead of orange and it costs $30 less.

When using a "long" tethering cable, I DO suggest you get a piece of velcro strap (or gaffers tape, etc.) and secure the cable to the TRIPOD (NOT to the camera). This way... should you (or anyone) trip on the cable, it wont yank at your USB connection port on the side of the damage and possibly damage it. Instead it'll yank on your tripod (bonus points awarded if you put a second piece of velcro or tape to run it down one leg and secure it at the floor level... that way a yank at the cable wont even pull the tripod over. For $6.27 you wont care if you destroy the cable. But you WILL care if you destroy your camera -- so route such that it wont hurt the camera if someone trips on the cable.

Re: Lense Choice for Product Photography

ebiggs1 — Tue, 28 Apr 2015 10:52:22 GMT

"cable is a 3' powered samsung."

I have no idea what cable that is. But it is not powered or active as some call them. I use thether all the time. I always use a cable like the one Tim Campbell showed but I always use the active or powered version. You can go to very long ones, up tp 75' and more without errors or loss of signal. I believe regualr USB are supposed to be less than 15 feet.

Also whatever cable you are using, it isn't the one that came with the camera? Do get a good high quality USB right now.

The strap Tim Campbel suggested is called a "jerk strap" and it is a very good idea. I always use it, too.