topic Re: Digital Photo Professional - Export/Resize Sharpness in Camera Software

Digital Photo Professional - Export/Resize Sharpness

penguinsushi — Sun, 14 Jun 2015 17:03:46 GMT

Hi, everybody -

I've been troubleshooting this for the last few days, and it's driving me crazy. Any help would be much appreciated.

I have noticed that when I export and resize images in DPP, they do not look as good as when I view the original raw in DPP. I have heard it said that "well, you're not comparing the images at 100% - if you look at the raw image at 100% and an un-resized exported jpg at 100%, they'll look the same."

Well, I have two problems with this.

1) I find it hard-to-impossible to work with images at 100%. I'm not that cool.

and

2) Regardless, I would expect the exported image to look like it does in DDP when I'm editing it. To me, that's kind of the point of the editor - to see what it's going to look like when you export it. I find it a bit ridiculous that I can take a screenshot of the raw image and the resulting jpeg looks better than anything the export produces (if anything, I would have expected it the other way around).

After doing a little experimenting, it appears that the sharpness and/or USM settings are not being applied on export. I've exported multiple images with various settings and they all look about the same. (I can't say they're exact, but I can't tell a difference)

I'm using DPP 3.13.51 (mac) - which is the latest version my machine will run.

Below is a photoshop-composited image comparison. I would have expected these two images to look basically identical, but the one of the left is clearly more crisp than the one on the right - seen best in her hair, eyes, mouth and the detail on the ball. (yes, i know the images aren't exactly the same size - but I don't think that should be a significant factor here - and it always looks the same no matter how I scale the window in DPP). This bothers me a great deal.

Has anyone else observed this problem? Am I looking at it wrong? Is this some issue with this version of the program? My machine? Something else?

Thanks,

~PS

Re: Digital Photo Professional - Export/Resize Sharpness

jrhoffman75 — Sun, 14 Jun 2015 17:53:31 GMT

What settings are you using in the "Convert and save" window?

Re: Digital Photo Professional - Export/Resize Sharpness

penguinsushi — Mon, 15 Jun 2015 12:37:41 GMT

Ah - sorry, I neglected to mention that.

Exported as jpeg - I always make sure jpeg 'quality' slider up to 10.

Output resolution - i used to leave this as 350, but tried setting to 72 thinking it might somehow 'optimize' it for the screen. I saw no noticeable difference in the image, so I go with my original assumption that this only matters for printing.

Resize - The above pic was resized to 400x600 so that I could see it on the screen as close as possible in size to the the raw window I was looking at. 'Lock aspect ratio' is always left on.

~PS

Re: Digital Photo Professional - Export/Resize Sharpness

jrhoffman75 — Mon, 15 Jun 2015 12:51:39 GMT

I had never noticed a problem on my conversions, but never studied closely.

I just tried it on PC version. Both Raw and converted JPEG look the same.

What camera are you using?

Re: Digital Photo Professional - Export/Resize Sharpness

penguinsushi — Mon, 15 Jun 2015 13:05:22 GMT

The above photo was shot with a 40D + 300mm f4L.

I wouldn't expect the camera/lens to matter, however. The issue really isn't how good the photos look, it's simply that the output doesn't look as good (or actually, that the output is noticeably different at all - I kind of expect WYSIWYG from a quality photo-editor). Is there some way this factors in - beyond simply how DPP applies the camera's 'picture style' settings to the raw by default? I think I would be disappointed if it did...

Interesting. I have a PC version of DPP here at work. If I'd had the fore-thought, I'd have brought the file with me and tried it here. Think I'll do that tomorrow. Perhaps the issue is with my build. This has actually been my hunch because I don't remember always having this problem. Still, it seems if that were the case, others would have had some similar experience (and could hopefully offer some solution).

Thanks for your help so far, jrhoffman!

~PS

Re: Digital Photo Professional - Export/Resize Sharpness

jrhoffman75 — Mon, 15 Jun 2015 13:46:56 GMT

I recalled seeing a posting a while ago about a DPP bug that was preventing sharpening from being applied during C&S, but it was for 5D Mark III.

Re: Digital Photo Professional - Export/Resize Sharpness

penguinsushi — Mon, 15 Jun 2015 14:05:02 GMT

Interesting. I wonder if I'm experiencing something similar, but perhaps my camera's old enough that it hasn't been caught by many? I'm planning on renting a 7DII to test-drive for an upcoming event. If I don't have this sorted by then, I'll have to see if I notice the issue with shots made with that body.

~PS

Re: Digital Photo Professional - Export/Resize Sharpness

RobertTheFat — Mon, 15 Jun 2015 14:22:43 GMT

@penguinsushi wrote:
Ah - sorry, I neglected to mention that.

Exported as jpeg - I always make sure jpeg 'quality' slider up to 10.

Output resolution - i used to leave this as 350, but tried setting to 72 thinking it might somehow 'optimize' it for the screen. I saw no noticeable difference in the image, so I go with my original assumption that this only matters for printing.

Resize - The above pic was resized to 400x600 so that I could see it on the screen as close as possible in size to the the raw window I was looking at. 'Lock aspect ratio' is always left on.

~PS

Two comments:

1) 400 x 600 is far too small to be the basis for any judgement of image quality, unless it's on a smartphone.

2) Nothing viewed on a smartphone should be used as the basis for judgemant of image quality.

I'm been shooting RAW and converting the RAW files to JPEG for nine years, using a succession of Canon cameras. I've used DPP as my primary photo editor for that whole time, and I've never seen a significant degradation from RAW to JPEG, as long as I keep the resolution high and the JPEG quality at 8 or better. (As a practical matter, I always use 10 unless I'm dumbing the image down to meet a file size limit, but it would be a challenge to see the difference between 8 and 10.) I have 11 pictures hanging in our office area. All were edited and converted with DPP, then commercially printed ad framed; and all of them look great.

So I think your problem has to be related to the low resolution, possibly exacerbated by substandard hardware. Run your tests at high resolution on the best equipment you have available. I'd be surprised if you don't see significant improvement.

Re: Digital Photo Professional - Export/Resize Sharpness

penguinsushi — Mon, 15 Jun 2015 14:44:15 GMT

Re: RobertTheFat:

While I mostly agree with #2, I do not agree with #1. 400x600 is in the neighborhood of a 5x7 as viewed on a computer screen - this is an acceptible size for viewing. And my issue here is screen-resolution reproduction. I have not conducted a great many experiments at print resolution because I don't print a lot of images.

In any case, this still does not explain my posted image above where the difference is clearly visible. DPP can clearly and dynamically convert the RAW for viewing on my screen at that resolution, but the highest-quality processed conversion looks noticeably degraded by comparison.

I'm not a pro, and I've only been shooting seriously for about 8 years. I've used DPP that entire time as well, and I'm fairly sure this issue is a recent development. I say "fairly" sure, because it's possible that inexperience caused me to "miss" it for a while, but it seems unlikely that I'd have missed it for this long. I've pulled up older photos, and they do seem sharper.

You bring up an interesting point, though - is hardware a significant concern? I would have assumed that an older machine would simply be slower, but that the results would not be adversely affected. If hardware affects the output, I would assert that the program has some resource management issues. Does it? I am using the best machine I have - which is a 2009 macbook. In general, I'd rather spend my $ on lenses than a new machine...

~PS

Re: Digital Photo Professional - Export/Resize Sharpness

RobertTheFat — Mon, 15 Jun 2015 15:20:09 GMT

@penguinsushi wrote:
Re: RobertTheFat:

While I mostly agree with #2, I do not agree with #1. 400x600 is in the neighborhood of a 5x7 as viewed on a computer screen - this is an acceptible size for viewing. And my issue here is screen-resolution reproduction. I have not conducted a great many experiments at print resolution because I don't print a lot of images.

In any case, this still does not explain my posted image above where the difference is clearly visible. DPP can clearly and dynamically convert the RAW for viewing on my screen at that resolution, but the highest-quality processed conversion looks noticeably degraded by comparison.

I'm not a pro, and I've only been shooting seriously for about 8 years. I've used DPP that entire time as well, and I'm fairly sure this issue is a recent development. I say "fairly" sure, because it's possible that inexperience caused me to "miss" it for a while, but it seems unlikely that I'd have missed it for this long. I've pulled up older photos, and they do seem sharper.

You bring up an interesting point, though - is hardware a significant concern? I would have assumed that an older machine would simply be slower, but that the results would not be adversely affected. If hardware affects the output, I would assert that the program has some resource management issues. Does it? I am using the best machine I have - which is a 2009 macbook. In general, I'd rather spend my $ on lenses than a new machine...

~PS

DPP V3 doesn't have a resource issue that I'm aware of. My reference to hardware was mainly aimed at the monitor and the graphics interface. Sorry for not making that clear. DPP V4 I think does have resource (and several other) issues, but you're not using V4.

Looking back at your sample images, I see that the RAW image is "fit to window", while the JPEG is "100% view". I don't think those are comparable. The RAW image has far more than enough information to display the image at the implied resolution, while the JPEG has no extra information. The RAW display is apt to be better because the program has more to work with.

All that said, I'm having difficulty seeing the problem at all. The images look very similar to me. Their most prominent feature is the blown highlights, and those look about as bad in the RAW image as in the JPEG. And I don't really see that one image is sharper than the other. Maybe others don't have my problem, but I think I'd at least find the comparison more meaningful with properly exposed images.

Re: Digital Photo Professional - Export/Resize Sharpness

penguinsushi — Mon, 15 Jun 2015 15:53:34 GMT

Re:

"Looking back at your sample images, I see that the RAW image is "fit to window", while the JPEG is "100% view". I don't think those are comparable. The RAW image has far more than enough information to display the image at the implied resolution, while the JPEG has no extra information. The RAW display is apt to be better because the program has more to work with."

No, not really. I see what you're saying, however, the program has exactly the same amount to work at the time of conversion. This is what puzzles me. The program can dynamically convert the full resolution file for display on my screen at that resolution while I'm working with it - and yet, when it does that same(?) conversion for export, it does not look as good. Again, it doesn't seem right that I can take a screenshot of myself working with the RAW and it turns out better than a process-exported image at the same resolution.

Re:

"All that said, I'm having difficulty seeing the problem at all. The images look very similar to me. Their most prominent feature is the blown highlights, and those look about as bad in the RAW image as in the JPEG. And I don't really see that one image is sharper than the other. Maybe others don't have my problem, but I think I'd at least find the comparison more meaningful with properly exposed images."

Haha. My wife said basically the same thing. Yes, I'll grant you the differences are subtle, but they're definitely there. I can be a bit overly obsessive about this, however. It's possible (likely, in this specific case) that I'm the only one who cares.

As for the overblown highlights, sure. And yeah, the EV is the same in both from what I can tell - no argument there. If I try to recover the highlights, I either end up with her face too much in shadow or with unacceptably-low image contrast. Again, I'm no pro. I generally try to set the exposure to get the "important" part of the image, and if other parts are too dark or overblown, well, that happens. It'd certainly be more ideal if all elements were properly exposed, but that's not always possible with bright sunlight and a running child - and that sort of thing doesn't bother me.

I could find another, more evenly-exposed image later to re-illustrate the issue if that would be helpful - but the differences are likely to be on the same scale. I actually found this image to be fairly "easy" to see by comparison. Other images I convert just "seem" off, but I have a harder time identifying the problem.

I'm generally not the sort of person that finds phantoms where there are none. I've actually written this problem off for several months - noticing differences, but just chalking it up to the difference in size, or Facebook's image compression, my imagination, or some other circumstance. It was actually this image that caused me to experiment and notice what I identify as a problem.

~PS

Re: Digital Photo Professional - Export/Resize Sharpness

penguinsushi — Wed, 17 Jun 2015 00:52:03 GMT

Alright, I have done some more work in an effort to make this inescapable. I have a new image (without overblown highlights), It's a tighter shot, making the facial sharpness more apparent (to me, anyway). The difference here seems still more obvious.

Above is a screenshot (cropped and composited) of three images open in DPP. On the left, is the RAW image I'm working with. In the middle is the exported JPEG (full quality, displayed scaled identically to the raw). On the right is another exported JPEG, this one exported and resized and being viewed at 100% but exactly the same size as the others that are "fit-to-window".

i see no noticeable difference between the JPEGs, but the RAW image is clearly sharper. If DPP can display the RAW image for my screen looking that sharp, why is the processed/exported image noticeably mushier?

Also, I have run now this same experiment on a PC using versions 3.14.15 and 3.14.48. Same results, exactly.

~PS

Re: Digital Photo Professional - Export/Resize Sharpness

RobertTheFat — Wed, 17 Jun 2015 13:34:56 GMT

@penguinsushi wrote:
Alright, I have done some more work in an effort to make this inescapable. I have a new image (without overblown highlights), It's a tighter shot, making the facial sharpness more apparent (to me, anyway). The difference here seems still more obvious.

Above is a screenshot (cropped and composited) of three images open in DPP. On the left, is the RAW image I'm working with. In the middle is the exported JPEG (full quality, displayed scaled identically to the raw). On the right is another exported JPEG, this one exported and resized and being viewed at 100% but exactly the same size as the others that are "fit-to-window".

i see no noticeable difference between the JPEGs, but the RAW image is clearly sharper. If DPP can display the RAW image for my screen looking that sharp, why is the processed/exported image noticeably mushier?

Also, I have run now this same experiment on a PC using versions 3.14.15 and 3.14.48. Same results, exactly.

~PS

All other things being equal, the RAW image should always look a tiny bit better. Information is bound to be lost in the conversion to JPEG, but DPP has all the original information available to it when displaying the RAW image. One thing you could do is try somebody else's RAW-to-JPEG conversion (Lightroom's, for example). If it works better, you have the option of using it instead. Of course it's possible to wonder how many independent RAW converters are actually out there; if the others all use Canon's RAW Codec, you may not see any difference.

Another thing you could try is converting to TIFF and then to JPEG. TIFF is supposedly a lossless encoding, so that step shuoldn't cost you much resolution. And there may be more TIFF-to-JPEG than CR2-to-JPEG converters out there. TIFF files tend to be inconveniently large; but if you don't have to send them off-site, you may be able to live with that.

Re: Digital Photo Professional - Export/Resize Sharpness

penguinsushi — Wed, 17 Jun 2015 14:09:45 GMT

"All other things being equal, the RAW image should always look a tiny bit better. Information is bound to be lost in the conversion to JPEG, but DPP has all the original information available to it when displaying the RAW image. One thing you could do is try somebody else's RAW-to-JPEG conversion (Lightroom's, for example). If it works better, you have the option of using it instead. Of course it's possible to wonder how many independent RAW converters are actually out there; if the others all use Canon's RAW Codec, you may not see any difference.

Should it? According to my understanding, the RAW file really isn't "what you're looking at" - you're looking at the program's interpretation of the data supplied by the raw file, with the config you've applied to it through the program. That is, it's dynamically generating a preview of what the photo would look like. It's basically a proof. If anything, I would expect an actual processed export to look a tiny bit better.

Am I misunderstanding something? This is what I keep coming back to - what confuses me. The program can take my RAW+config and show something on the screen. Something that I can take a JPEG screenshot of and end up with a JPEG that looks significantly better than the JPEG produced by the output of the actual processor, pixel for pixel. If I had a monitor big enough to view the entire photo, I'd just about say this is the preferable solution to my problem. And that fact strikes me as completely ridiculous.

I have tried to export as TIFF, and the file was not noticeably better than the JPEG at full quality (at least not at the dimensions I'm wanting). I may play around with that a little bit more, at your suggestion.

I have considered getting an Adobe CC Photography subscription for Lightroom and Photoshop after consulting a pro friend of mine who told me that's what he uses. Unfortunately, I would have to buy a new computer (or start commandeering my wife's) to use it, so this isn't the preferable solution - and it also feels like overkill, considering that I don't do much to my shots in post. Again, if I'm going to put $$ into photography, I have lenses I want and I'd kinda like an upgrade from my good ol' 40D.

Don't get me wrong, RobertTheFat, I do appreciate your help - and thanks very much! It just doesn't quite add up to me yet...

~PS

Re: Digital Photo Professional - Export/Resize Sharpness

Bertinsky — Wed, 19 Apr 2017 22:01:27 GMT

Hi, penguinsushi

I just happened to come across your post since I was trying to figure out why images viewed at 100% in DPP appear nowhere near as sharp as they look when viewed at 50%. Like your sharpness problem, this somewhat bugs me and I've yet to discover a logical explanation (I'm sure it's a combination of technical and viewing distance factors).

However, I was intrigued by your problem and set about replicating it (and, yes, there is a noticeable difference in sharpness between your two images). Lo and behold, I noticed a difference in sharpness between my RAW and exported TIFF or JPEG images!

But I think I've solved your 'problem': if you set your Sharpness settings to ZERO under the RAW and RGB tabs in the Tool Palette -- by sliding the Sharpness sliders to (0) and 0 or, under the RAW tab, selecting a Picture Style of Neutral or Faithful -- a RAW image will appear as unsharp (or fuzzy) as its exported version.

Why exported images do not retain the Sharpness (or Unsharp mask) settings, I do not know. Of course, as you probably have already been doing, exported images will still have to be sharpened ...

Note: I'm (still) using DPP version 3.13.45.0.

Let me know if that helps.