topic Re: First time user of DPP4 encountering an odd issue with cr3 jpg and picture styles in Camera Software

First time user of DPP4 encountering an odd issue with cr3 jpg and picture styles

MarkTwo — Fri, 14 Jun 2024 12:56:26 GMT

Hello everyone o/

Below are screencaptures of DPP4 and Windows 11's File Explorer's view of a few photos.
Notice the difference between the cr3 and jpg in File Explorer. So far so good and as expected.
But now opening that folder with the Picture Styled jpg's and the raw files DPP4 presents me with tonally identical looking images.
I seem to be unable to revert to the difference as seen in the File Explorer's view of the raw files.

Stumped!

Re: First time user of DPP4 encountering an odd issue with cr3 jpg and picture styles

MarkTwo — Fri, 14 Jun 2024 11:19:39 GMT

Basically I would like to start from that un-picturestyled raw file and work from there for an edit but it seems impossible to not deploy any picture style, one can only choose another and I find no way to 'revert' to the raw image as exampled in File Explorer which shows the jpg with style applied and the cr3 without.

Re: First time user of DPP4 encountering an odd issue with cr3 jpg and picture styles

jrhoffman75 — Fri, 14 Jun 2024 11:36:42 GMT

@MarkTwo wrote:

Basically I would like to start from that un-picturestyled raw file and work from there for an edit but it seems impossible to not deploy any picture style, one can only choose another and I find no way to 'revert' to the raw image as exampled in File Explorer which shows the jpg with style applied and the cr3 without.

That is not directly possible in DPP4. When you open a RAW file in DPP4 it will apply the in-camera Picture Style.

Any RAW file viewer or editing software is applying its own interpretation of the RAW image.

You could switch the PS in DPP4 to Neutral and start editing from there. That PS has the least amount of settings applied.

Canon Knowledge Base - QuickGuide to Picture Style Settings and Customization

Re: First time user of DPP4 encountering an odd issue with cr3 jpg and picture styles

johnrmoyer — Fri, 14 Jun 2024 11:52:52 GMT

@MarkTwo wrote:

Basically I would like to start from that un-picturestyled raw file and work from there for an edit but it seems impossible to not deploy any picture style, one can only choose another and I find no way to 'revert' to the raw image as exampled in File Explorer which shows the jpg with style applied and the cr3 without.

I no longer use Windows since I no longer have an employer to require Windows. I hope some of this might be helpful anyway.

I use DPP4.

I do not know what the Windows File explorer is doing, but my first guess is that it would use the preview JPEG stored in the CR3 file. There is no color in an unprocessed raw, but processing the raw file creates the color. If Windows is not using the embedded preview in the CR3 file, then it is hard to guess what Windows might be doing. Setting the "Faithful" or "Neutral" picture styles in the camera will do the simplest changes to color. I prefer the "Standard" picture style usually as a starting point. The difference between the two views might be color space or ICC profile.

DPP will use the camera settings for the initial display. If you have a picture style selected in the camera, DPP will start with that. There are 5 color spaces that DPP can use. If Windows uses another, then the appearance will change. I do not have the same camera, but it might be worth checking the camera manual for which color space is being used in the camera.

https://cam.start.canon/en/S002/manual/html/UG-13_Setting_0010.html#Setting_0010_3

The DPP manual has a seciton on color-matching Windows monitors.

My own preference is to set sRGB color space in the camera and nearly always use sRGB for everything because my photos are usually viewed in a web browser. I have experimented with HDR PQ and like it better, but support for it is not yet everywhere.

https://cam.start.canon/en/S002/manual/html/UG-04_EditImage_0040.html

Re: First time user of DPP4 encountering an odd issue with cr3 jpg and picture styles

MarkTwo — Fri, 14 Jun 2024 12:35:30 GMT

Greetings from the Netherlands! and thank you for taking the time to reply.

I was kind of hoping for a different answer, and still am sort of but considering your badge illuminary/legend I am experiencing a slight crushing of those hopes lol..

Yes there seems to be no 'standard' 'raw' viewing of cr3 files any place I try.
When I open a fresh install of RawTherapee - and it looks like its perfectly aware of my camera and the lens used - I get a different again look of the cr3 files again..

Re: First time user of DPP4 encountering an odd issue with cr3 jpg and picture styles

MarkTwo — Fri, 14 Jun 2024 12:38:58 GMT

I have a datacolor spyder 4 and my monitor is calibrated to 99% srgb and use srgb for everything yeah. The File Explorer preview of the JPG matches the tonality of the cr3 and jpg view in DPP3 - the cr3 file in Explorer shows the 'raw' cr3. So far as I can tell this is not a colourspace workflow issue =/

The cr3 file support in Windows specifically mentioned Canon raw file support down to the model in the documentation and it is as up to date as can be..

Re: First time user of DPP4 encountering an odd issue with cr3 jpg and picture styles

jrhoffman75 — Fri, 14 Jun 2024 12:40:03 GMT

@MarkTwo wrote:

When I open a fresh install of RawTherapee - and it looks like its perfectly aware of my camera and the lens used - I get a different again look of the cr3 files again..

Correct. Each RAW file converter presents its own conversion interpretation of the RAW digital data.

You will see discussions online that different folks prefer different software products for how they present image files. That is because the developers have to create the algorithms that read the file data and convert to visible colors.

The only true display of a Canon RAW file colors is via the Canon software.

Re: First time user of DPP4 encountering an odd issue with cr3 jpg and picture styles

MarkTwo — Fri, 14 Jun 2024 12:41:25 GMT

I've tried 'neutral' etc in DPP4, gamma correction etc, but no matter what I do I can not bring back the detail that seems to have gotten lost.

Re: First time user of DPP4 encountering an odd issue with cr3 jpg and picture styles

johnrmoyer — Fri, 14 Jun 2024 12:45:24 GMT

@MarkTwo wrote:

Greetings from the Netherlands! and thank you for taking the time to reply.

I was kind of hoping for a different answer, and still am sort of but considering your badge illuminary/legend I am experiencing a slight crushing of those hopes lol..

Yes there seems to be no 'standard' 'raw' viewing of cr3 files any place I try.
When I open a fresh install of RawTherapee - and it looks like its perfectly aware of my camera and the lens used - I get a different again look of the cr3 files again..

Greetings from Oklahoma. Some of my ancestors lived in The Netherlands several centuries ago and I have enjoyed visiting there.

I usually use DPP, but also use rawtherapee. The closest you will get to a "Standard" look is to use the "Standard" picture style in camera and view the out of camera JPEG. Then DPP will take the CR3 file and create a very similar JPEG unless you have configured DPP to use a different color space. For viewing on a screen with the greatest compatibility, I suggest sRGB. For printing I suggest a color space that can represent more colors than sRGB. It is necessary to use the same color space everywhere to get the image to look the same, but the viewing surface may also change the colors.

Good luck

Re: First time user of DPP4 encountering an odd issue with cr3 jpg and picture styles

jrhoffman75 — Fri, 14 Jun 2024 12:45:32 GMT

@MarkTwo wrote:

Greetings from the Netherlands! and thank you for taking the time to reply.

I was kind of hoping for a different answer, and still am sort of but considering your badge illuminary/legend I am experiencing a slight crushing of those hopes lol..

Yes there seems to be no 'standard' 'raw' viewing of cr3 files any place I try.
When I open a fresh install of RawTherapee - and it looks like its perfectly aware of my camera and the lens used - I get a different again look of the cr3 files again..

Most non-Canon software tools do not recognize the Canon Picture Styles. Some has implemented the capability, like Adobe Lightroom Classic.

Try this test: In camera set your Picture Style to Monochrome. Then open the RAW file in a software tool. Mosty likely you will have a color image.

Re: First time user of DPP4 encountering an odd issue with cr3 jpg and picture styles

jrhoffman75 — Fri, 14 Jun 2024 12:58:31 GMT

@MarkTwo wrote:

I've tried 'neutral' etc in DPP4, gamma correction etc, but no matter what I do I can not bring back the detail that seems to have gotten lost.

Neutral PS creates low sharpness and contrast images as a starting point for post processing and allowing for sharpness and contrast adjustment in DPP4. Gamma correction will adjust exposure.

Have you tried Fine Detail PS?

What image are you comparing the lost detail to?

Re: First time user of DPP4 encountering an odd issue with cr3 jpg and picture styles

MarkTwo — Fri, 14 Jun 2024 13:16:35 GMT

I will try Fine Detail next!
Mostly I am looking at photos of my son at our kithcen table working on a Scratch project ( I won't post family photos here ^^) which in File Explorer and the Windows Photos app shows as the day was - cloudy and overcast, but enough light to show the pores in his skin, small variations in skintone etc.
The DPP4 view is the Picture profile - in this case Fuji 400H - which presents a sort of pleasant almost overexposed look with pleasing colours which bring out his eyes but most all detail of his skin has disappeared and subtleties of clothing and in the structure of his hair as well.

Similarly the pictures of Kees our cat in the cr3 files viewed in the Photos app of Windows 11 the colours or decently neutral and true to what I saw in real life, and zoomed in is fine detail visible ón the hairs and each hair is clearly defined from the other but in DPP4 with most Styles I have tried to change to this fine detail is mostly lost in translation.

Re: First time user of DPP4 encountering an odd issue with cr3 jpg and picture styles

jrhoffman75 — Fri, 14 Jun 2024 13:32:18 GMT

Hi Mark.

How are you doing this in DPP4?

"The DPP4 view is the Picture profile - in this case Fuji 400H"

Re: First time user of DPP4 encountering an odd issue with cr3 jpg and picture styles

MarkTwo — Fri, 14 Jun 2024 14:50:27 GMT

When I load photos made in a specific profile it shows in dpp4 which profile I used. If I change it afterwards the preview window will show the Style the cr3 was taken in on the left in preview window and the one I change it to on the right.

Its odd that the text of DPP4 Styles on the website says "Picture Profiles do not affect the raw image and you can remove the style or change it" because you can't and it does =/ *

*again all relative to my view in Windows Explorer/Photos app which shows the cr3 file as a very neutral photo without style and the jpg with the applied picture style

Re: First time user of DPP4 encountering an odd issue with cr3 jpg and picture styles

jrhoffman75 — Fri, 14 Jun 2024 15:04:05 GMT

I am familiar with film emulation profiles for software like Lightroom but I am not familiar with their use in DPP. How do you apply the profiles and have them show in DPP?

Re: First time user of DPP4 encountering an odd issue with cr3 jpg and picture styles

jrhoffman75 — Fri, 14 Jun 2024 15:25:03 GMT

“"Picture Profiles do not affect the raw image and you can remove the style or change it" because you can't and it does =/ * ”

Picture Styles are an entry in one of the file locations of a .CR3 file. It tells the camera how to display the processed file on the back of the camera and how to display the file in DPP. It does not alter the digital data captured by the camera sensor.
It can’t be deleted in the sense that there has to be a Picture Style, but the one being used can be changed in DPP and the RAW file can be saved so that the newly chosen PS becomes the default for that file.
Most third party software programs do not recognize Picture Styles. Lightroom can be configured to recognize the in-camera settings, but even then it will display Adobe’s version of the PS. It won’t be exactly like the camera version.
Canon provides a free software called Picture Style Editor. It can be used to create custom PS files. They can be uploaded to the camera and selected for use.

Re: First time user of DPP4 encountering an odd issue with cr3 jpg and picture styles

MarkTwo — Fri, 14 Jun 2024 15:48:38 GMT

Well it is what it is I guess. Thanks John. I will get the DPP4 manual at the ready on my tablet and go explore sides of photography I hadn't really before - part of the fun!

Re: First time user of DPP4 encountering an odd issue with cr3 jpg and picture styles

johnrmoyer — Fri, 14 Jun 2024 16:12:09 GMT

I got out my EOS 80D camera which has SCN modes. If I use an SCN mode, then for picture style in DPP "Shot Settings" is available which makes the image on the DPP screen look like the out of camera JPG.

You did not say you were using one of the SCN modes, but if you are then this might be the solution.

Re: First time user of DPP4 encountering an odd issue with cr3 jpg and picture styles

MarkTwo — Sat, 15 Jun 2024 07:15:37 GMT

I've downloaded ART ( Another Raw Therapee ) and am impressed with it.

A plethora of lens correction profiles out of the box for just about all the lenses I can think of for many systems.

And its 'neutral' profile comes very close to raw RAW - except the reds are a bit different from DPP4.
Not bad but different..