topic Re: Digital Photo Professional 4... 'HDR Compositing Tool..." No option to save camera data? in Camera Software

Digital Photo Professional 4... 'HDR Compositing Tool..." No option to save camera data?

robertkjr3d — Mon, 16 Oct 2023 15:06:54 GMT

It's slightly annoying that when using the DPP ver 4. The 'Start HDR Compositing Tool', does some good work with the photos in many cases, not in all cases. But when its used, there seems to be no way to have it save with the 'Camera' data. You know like 'Camera Maker', 'Camera Model', 'F-Stop', 'Exposure Time', 'ISO-Speed'....

All of that data is lost when saving the file using this method.

EDIT: This is for processing one image at a time. Not multiple images in the HDR screen. I realize that the function is called 'Composite', but I've only used the function with one image. Maybe few have discovered it's usefulness.

Re: Digital Photo Professional 4... 'HDR Compositing Tool..." No option to save camera data?

shadowsports — Sun, 15 Oct 2023 10:56:33 GMT

Greetings,

I tried with 3 photos. Waterfall, crane, and my niece. Same body, different lenses.

I can confirm the data gets stripped. There may be a technical reason for this. You can make a feature request using [+]Feedback > Product on the Canon USA website.

Re: Digital Photo Professional 4... 'HDR Compositing Tool..." No option to save camera data?

Waddizzle — Sun, 15 Oct 2023 12:02:45 GMT

When you stop and think about it, the EXIF data for a HDR composite image is undefined. You cite exposure settings as an example. Okay. What should the shutter speed for the composite image be when three were used to capture the HDR sequence of images?

What date and time should be used in the EXIF? The most logical date and time would when the HDR composite was captured. If you cannot write some of the data, I guess the best compromise is to write none of the data.

Re: Digital Photo Professional 4... 'HDR Compositing Tool..." No option to save camera data?

shadowsports — Sun, 15 Oct 2023 16:10:38 GMT

Waddizzle,

Agree. 😃 I was looking at the EXIF data and thought how is it going to do this? I used 3 photos taken at different times with different glass. Even if they were captured at the same time, there isn't a way to definitively list what differs.

Re: Digital Photo Professional 4... 'HDR Compositing Tool..." No option to save camera data?

johnrmoyer — Sun, 15 Oct 2023 21:57:29 GMT

While others have mentioned that some of the exif data would differ among the photos composited, it would be possible to use exiftool to copy the metadata from one of the raw files that you think represents the image closely enough.

For example, I did this to copy information to a composite:

exiftool -TagsFromFile IMG_6759.CR3 -makernotes -make -model DC_IMG_6759-6764.JPG
exiftool -TagsFromFile IMG_6764.CR3  -Canon:Image:FocusDistanceUpper DC_IMG_6759-6764.JPG

The focus distance for both the first image (FocusDistanceLower) and last image (FocusDistanceUpper) was then in the composite image as well as the ISO, focal length, and shutter speed.

A wild orchid Spiranthes lacera var. gracilis commonly called Slender Ladies' Tresses blooming in Norman, Oklahoma, United States, on October 9, 2023 (focus stack of 6 images) https://www.rsok.com/~jrm/2023Oct15_birds_and_cats/2023oct09_wildflower_IMG_6759-6764c.html

Re: Digital Photo Professional 4... 'HDR Compositing Tool..." No option to save camera data?

johnrmoyer — Sun, 15 Oct 2023 22:05:44 GMT

To list what differs on your Linux computer or your macOS computer,

exiftool -s -G0:2 image1.jpg > image1.jpg.txt

exiftool -s -G0:2 image2.jpg > image2.jpg.txt

diff image1.jpg.txt image2.jpg.txt | less

But, the raw file will usually contain more information than the JPEG, so substitute CR3 or CR2 for jpg.

The output from diff for the first and last CR3 files I used to make a composite is:

2c2
< [File:Other]    FileName                        : IMG_6673.CR3
---
> [File:Other]    FileName                        : IMG_6676.CR3
4c4
< [File:Other]    FileSize                        : 8.9 MB
---
> [File:Other]    FileSize                        : 13 MB
9,10c9,10
< [File:Time]     FileModifyDate                  : 2023:10:04 09:05:53-05:00
< [File:Time]     FileAccessDate                  : 2023:10:04 09:53:12-05:00
---
> [File:Time]     FileModifyDate                  : 2023:10:04 09:05:54-05:00
> [File:Time]     FileAccessDate                  : 2023:10:04 09:53:10-05:00
43,44c43,44
< [QuickTime:Video] MediaDataSize                 : 8399958
< [QuickTime:Video] MediaDataOffset               : 492544
---
> [QuickTime:Video] MediaDataSize                 : 11914326
> [QuickTime:Video] MediaDataOffset               : 773120
85,87c85,87
< [EXIF:Time]     SubSecTime                      : 00
< [EXIF:Time]     SubSecTimeOriginal              : 00
< [EXIF:Time]     SubSecTimeDigitized             : 00
---
> [EXIF:Time]     SubSecTime                      : 66
> [EXIF:Time]     SubSecTimeOriginal              : 66
> [EXIF:Time]     SubSecTimeDigitized             : 66
169c169
< [MakerNotes:Camera] MeasuredRGGB                : 580 1024 1024 473
---
> [MakerNotes:Camera] MeasuredRGGB                : 582 1024 1024 472
248c248
< [MakerNotes:Image] MeasuredEV2                  : 16.5
---
> [MakerNotes:Image] MeasuredEV2                  : 17
255c255
< [MakerNotes:Image] ImageUniqueID                : c5bc905dde404a4ba1b91d62c962c613
---
> [MakerNotes:Image] ImageUniqueID                : cbbc905dde404a4ba1b91d62c962c613
264,265c264,265
< [MakerNotes:Image] FocusDistanceUpper           : 0.46 m
< [MakerNotes:Image] FocusDistanceLower           : 0.44 m
---
> [MakerNotes:Image] FocusDistanceUpper           : 0.62 m
> [MakerNotes:Image] FocusDistanceLower           : 0.57 m
299c299
< [MakerNotes:Time] TimeStamp                     : 2023:10:04 09:05:53.00
---
> [MakerNotes:Time] TimeStamp                     : 2023:10:04 09:05:53.66
302c302
< [MakerNotes:Preview] ThumbnailImage             : (Binary data 19208 bytes, use -b option to extract)
---
> [MakerNotes:Preview] ThumbnailImage             : (Binary data 20160 bytes, use -b option to extract)
309,310c309,310
< [QuickTime:Preview] JpgFromRaw                  : (Binary data 1509761 bytes, use -b option to extract)
< [QuickTime:Preview] PreviewImage                : (Binary data 384488 bytes, use -b option to extract)
---
> [QuickTime:Preview] JpgFromRaw                  : (Binary data 2862408 bytes, use -b option to extract)
> [QuickTime:Preview] PreviewImage                : (Binary data 663832 bytes, use -b option to extract)
351c351
< [Composite:Image] DOF                           : 0.15 m (0.39 - 0.54 m)
---
> [Composite:Image] DOF                           : 0.28 m (0.49 - 0.77 m)
354,357c354,357
< [Composite:Time] SubSecCreateDate               : 2023:10:04 09:05:53.00-05:00
< [Composite:Time] SubSecDateTimeOriginal         : 2023:10:04 09:05:53.00-05:00
< [Composite:Time] SubSecModifyDate               : 2023:10:04 09:05:53.00-05:00
< [Composite:Video] AvgBitrate                    : 67.2 Mbps
---
> [Composite:Time] SubSecCreateDate               : 2023:10:04 09:05:53.66-05:00
> [Composite:Time] SubSecDateTimeOriginal         : 2023:10:04 09:05:53.66-05:00
> [Composite:Time] SubSecModifyDate               : 2023:10:04 09:05:53.66-05:00
> [Composite:Video] AvgBitrate                    : 95.3 Mbps

Re: Digital Photo Professional 4... 'HDR Compositing Tool..." No option to save camera data?

robertkjr3d — Sun, 15 Oct 2023 23:41:07 GMT

That doesn't make sense. Almost any JPEG editor your using (worth its salt) in any form will still forward the 'data' to the resulting image. It's not a totally new image just because your doing 'HDR processing'.

The shutter speed of the image is a 'historical record marker', am I missing the point of what the data is for?. As another poster pointed out... the data is stripped out. The point of the data is for 'history'. Just because you are 'hdr processing'... does not and would not change the 'shutter speed' of the original image. Shutter speed and other settings in the 'data' is only listed for 'historical reasons'. And is the whole point of the question.

Re: Digital Photo Professional 4... 'HDR Compositing Tool..." No option to save camera data?

Waddizzle — Sun, 15 Oct 2023 23:50:16 GMT

@robertkjr3d wrote:
That doesn't make sense. Almost any JPEG editor your using (worth its salt) in any form will still forward the 'data' to the resulting image. It's not a totally new image just because your doing 'HDR processing'.

It is a totally new image. It is a composite of multiple images. That question should not even be open to debate. It is a totally new image that was generated in post.

The only date and time that would make sense would the date and time the composite was created. The exposure and camera settings are undefined because they will almost always be mismatched between the images used to build the final composite.

[EDIT] The source images could have three different shutter speeds. Which shutter speed should be used for the final composite image? A, B, or C?

Parts of the final image were captured at each of the original shutter speeds used in the source files. To specify a specific shutter speed would be false and misleading.

Re: Digital Photo Professional 4... 'HDR Compositing Tool..." No option to save camera data?

robertkjr3d — Sun, 15 Oct 2023 23:55:10 GMT

I don't see what is the meaning of this comment. When you click 'Convert and Save' DPP4 saves with the data... When you click 'HDR Processing' --> then change 'Art Standard' in the settings. Sometimes the HDR version wins in its processing ability. So I may keep the latter version. But keeping that as the version that I process into Jpeg costs me the 'historical' camera data in the file record.

What does have to do with photos taken at different times? as mentioned in the example above. Nothing. Those would be 3 different photos.

There should be no different in functionality in saving then when using 'Convert and Save'...

Re: Digital Photo Professional 4... 'HDR Compositing Tool..." No option to save camera data?

johnrmoyer — Mon, 16 Oct 2023 00:04:02 GMT

@robertkjr3d wrote:
I don't see what is the meaning of this comment. When you click 'Convert and Save' DPP4 saves with the data... When you click 'HDR Processing' --> then change 'Art Standard' in the settings. Sometimes the HDR version wins in its processing ability. So I may keep the latter version. But keeping that as the version that I process into Jpeg costs me the 'historical' camera data in the file record.
What does have to do with photos taken at different times? as mentioned in the example above. Nothing. Those would be 3 different photos.
There should be no different in functionality in saving then when using 'Convert and Save'...

It makes sense to me that if some of the historical camera data is the same for all of the images that are composited, then that data should be put into the resulting image. Since DPP does not do that, I use exiftool.

I also save the recipe in DPP to a dr4 file and use exiftool to dump that to text so that I have a record of my edits. More history.

Re: Digital Photo Professional 4... 'HDR Compositing Tool..." No option to save camera data?

Waddizzle — Mon, 16 Oct 2023 02:49:14 GMT

“.If you cannot write some of the data, I guess the best compromise is to write none of the data.“

If the above statement does not make any to you, then it does not make any sense for me to continue repeating myself. The solution you want simply doesn’t exist. Never will.

Re: Digital Photo Professional 4... 'HDR Compositing Tool..." No option to save camera data?

robertkjr3d — Mon, 16 Oct 2023 11:44:11 GMT

I see in the HDR-Processing menu it gives you the option to process more than one file at once. But I've never used that option, or even knew what it was for. I only process one file, and see the wonders at what it does.

Re: Digital Photo Professional 4... 'HDR Compositing Tool..." No option to save camera data?

robertkjr3d — Mon, 16 Oct 2023 11:47:45 GMT

As I mentioned to Waswizzizle.. I've never used the function to process more than one file at once. I see that it offered the option, but never knew what it was for. I was just happy with the results the HDR-option was producing for 'one image' at a time. Now I see what you guys are talking about, but your missing the concept how great the function is when processed on just one image, and since it's being used on just one image.... there is no reason to throw out the 'data' on the one image.

Re: Digital Photo Professional 4... 'HDR Compositing Tool..." No option to save camera data?

robertkjr3d — Mon, 16 Oct 2023 14:01:11 GMT

Really the answer to the question involves 3 parts. 1) First I edited my original post above to include. That this is only about processing "One Image" in the HDR Processing screen. I've never tried to process more than one at once, and didn't know it's purpose, that of processing more than one, and doing some-sort-of combination of images. Combining images was not apart of the question at all. 2) As Shadowsports points out. A feature request seems logical. (Although his example was a Star Trek motion picture transporter accident). I will post a simple example, of one photo, not an "oh no they're forming" example. (umm that's a quote from the movie if you didn't get it...) Could the processing be done in another tool? Maybe, but the work is done for me already, why not use it, before I have to. And the results sometimes are where I need it. 3) Using the Exiftool is the ticket to fix the problem in the mean-time, if its that important to me. I can add the data back in from the original .CR3 file. It was not exactly what others had posted on this thread, but rather reminding me of the tool. So that's what prompted me to look up how to copy one files data to another. So all I'll need to do is: exiftool -TagsFromFile {file...}.CR3 {File... HDR-Processed}.jpgHDR vs 'Compare and Save'...

Re: Digital Photo Professional 4... 'HDR Compositing Tool..." No option to save camera data?

johnrmoyer — Mon, 16 Oct 2023 21:21:26 GMT

Exiftool needs two parameters in addition to TagsFromFile when the destination image has had the makernotes section stripped out. Exiftool also needs "-make -model".

exiftool -TagsFromFile IMG_6759.CR3 -makernotes -make -model DC_IMG_6759-6764.JPG

Re: Digital Photo Professional 4... 'HDR Compositing Tool..." No option to save camera data?

robertkjr3d — Mon, 16 Oct 2023 21:38:58 GMT

That's funny I don't appear to be missing anything. I was just following the internet instructions. The image below is from my command.

Re: Digital Photo Professional 4... 'HDR Compositing Tool..." No option to save camera data?

FloridaDrafter — Tue, 17 Oct 2023 06:42:00 GMT

@robertkjr3d wrote:
I see in the HDR-Processing menu it gives you the option to process more than one file at once. But I've never used that option, or even knew what it was for. I only process one file, and see the wonders at what it does.

So that means you are not making HDR, or more precisely "Exposure Bracketed" files. The process must start in camera using the HDR or Auto Exposure Bracketing (AEB) feature in your R6 mark II. I'm not sure what shenanigans DPP is up to by allowing only one file to be processed, but that's just not the way it's traditionally done (see Attached). I suspect that it is just applying the effects that it would normally do for an exposure bracketed file.

You start by taking three images: Normal exposure; Under exposure; Over exposure by setting + and - exposure in addition to your initial correct exposure either in the R6II's HDR or AEB feature (please look in the manual for these procedures). The difference being that the HDR feature will create an in camera HDR with an option to save your original files and the AEB feature will just make your three files to be processed in DPP (or whatever program you wish to use). Tip: Set your R6II drive to continuous and it will quickly shoot your three exposures, if not, you will have to press the shutter three times. Also, you can do this "hand held" because the R6II does this very quickly (Elec. Shutter) and you can enable "Moving subject". You then process these files to create a file with a higher dynamic range. Not necessarily a better color gamut, but more detail in the dark, light, and mid-tones, the sum being better than the parts.

These are three down n dirty shots I just took with the R6 mark II and processed in DPP 4. The second attachment is the bracketed HDR of the three CR3 files.

Three shot HDR/Exposure Bracketing

Traditionally (the correct way it's done), exposure can be changed in several different ways and I've noticed that sometimes a combination, like one file may have a different ISO and the next shot in the series will have a different shutter speed and ISO. Also traditionally, and I've been exposure bracketing quite a while, long before DPP included it as an option, EXIF data has never been included. The final composite can not be represented properly by any of the original EXIF data. You can paste data all you want, but it won't even be close to what the final image represents and I seriously doubt Canon is going to do anything about this because, as mentioned, the EXIF data in the composite will not properly represent any of the three images used for the bracket.

Newton

Re: Digital Photo Professional 4... 'HDR Compositing Tool..." No option to save camera data?

johnrmoyer — Tue, 17 Oct 2023 13:15:38 GMT

@FloridaDrafter What you say about an HDR composite is correct. Thanks for providing that explanation.

HDR PQ mode in the camera or in DPP follows the standard. I usually think standards are a good thing, but in this case it may limit flexibility.

https://cam.start.canon/en/S002/manual/html/UG-12_HDRPQ_0010.html has the DPP manual section on HDR PQ.

There is also a list in the manual of all the normal things that are not available in HDR PQ mode in DPP.

The HIF files produced look stunning in the Photos.app on my iMac with HDR monitor. This is a big improvement over HDR squeezed to display on a SDR monitor, so I hope eventually it becomes as well supported as JPEG, but for now I will continue using JPEG and sRGB and adust the tone curve (gamma) in DPP to squeeze as much of the dynamic range of a single CR3 file as possible into a JPEG because JPEG is more likely to be viewable in web browsers and most often my photos are viewed on a screen.

More about HDR PQ HEIF is at: snapshot dot canon-asia dot com, but I am apparently not permitted to post the URL here. It seems to me a very good explanation.

The PG standard part of HDR PQ is explained at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perceptual_quantizer

The HEIF part of the standard is explained at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Efficiency_Image_File_Format

It seems unclear to me what sort of meta-data is expected in a HIF file. It is not the same as a JPEG. To get an HDR JPEG from DPP I suggest not using the HDR PQ mode, but in the gamma adjustment tab move the white point to the right until none of the important colors are clipped. I think of doing this as creating a non standard gamma curve that seems to me to work well with a particular photo. As an alternative, one might convert the HIF to a JPEG and transfer meta-data from the CR3 file to the JPEG.

Re: Digital Photo Professional 4... 'HDR Compositing Tool..." No option to save camera data?

robertkjr3d — Tue, 17 Oct 2023 13:47:50 GMT

I see what your doing. And it makes sense that it would be used with either 'Tripod' stationary shooting or burst shots. that way. But as stated I had no idea of that functionality, or very little interest in it, maybe in the future? I was taking advantage of the processing ability of the HDR-Processing screen in DPP4 on 'Just one' file not ... more than one file. See the 'answer' I have already marked as a solution. Or even take one of your dark-ish shots, and notice the ability of that HDR screen to bring out 'detail' with the especially with the use of the 'Art Standard' preset, and/or just fiddlin with the sliders.
I realize the function is called 'Composite' which means 'more than one image', but I'm breaking that rule, and I'm not doing any 'Compositing'. I'm just using it on one file. Try it yourself. It does great things. Regardless the question was to do with shot settings not being saved into the file. Perhaps understandable if more than one file? (one person suggested, that it should see the shots have the similar or the same settings and just record them....) But I was really talking about just 'One File' so of course it should forward those off to the resulting file.

Re: Digital Photo Professional 4... 'HDR Compositing Tool..." No option to save camera data?

FloridaDrafter — Tue, 17 Oct 2023 17:35:44 GMT

@robertkjr3d wrote:
"I'm just using it on one file. Try it yourself. It does great things. Regardless the question was to do with shot settings not being saved into the file. Perhaps understandable if more than one file? (one person suggested, that it should see the shots have the similar or the same settings and just record them....) But I was really talking about just 'One File' so of course it should forward those off to the resulting file."

I understand what you are doing and have done it with one file in DPP and in other raster editors before.

In your case (one properly exposed file), DPP is simply adding it's presets with some adjustability (that are intended for a bracketed composite) to your properly exposed image. Although I knew what the results would be, I ran one of my underexposed bracketed files and used all of the "Art" presets and played with the sliders as you requested (see attached). I'm not impressed. Note that the key word in all but the Natural preset is "Art" (I used Natural in my previous composite). These, as the name implies, are for artistic renderings of what would be a normally exposed image. If art is what you are after instead of a natural looking scene, by all means have at it. But you can not expect accurate EXIF data from an artistic rendering of an image. If anything, maybe the preset used and its slider values, but certainly not the exposure triangle as that is long gone when you add the Art presets to manipulate your image.

With Art Standard +Brightness applied.

Art Standard Using Underexposed Image

Newton