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Respected Contributor
Posts: 1,813
Registered: ‎02-26-2015

Re: 6D MKII a disappointment???

[ Edited ]

skyking wrote:

So, if I "hear" you correct I never want to take the black point above "0" and can pull the black point to the negative and even "clip" the blacks. Am I correct??

 

James


In my opinion you want blacks 'clipped', so you have a true black, black point. Not just OK to clip the blacks, you always want to clip the blacks. But, as I showed, just barely clipped.

Honored Contributor
Posts: 5,427
Registered: ‎08-13-2015

Re: 6D MKII a disappointment???

[ Edited ]

TTMartin wrote:

Waddizzle wrote:

I think that I might be doing the same think as TTMartin, except maybe from a different direction, to set the widest dynamic range between whites and blacks without saturation.  

LR6_BlackWhite_Setpoint_Under.JPGLR6_BlackWhite_Setpoint_Over.JPGLR6_BlackWhite_Setpoint_Final.JPG

 


 

 

No, I do not believe we are doing the same thing.

And as I mention since Canon sets their black point differently, keeping the left black triangle 'clear', means you don't have a true black, and are maintaining 'noise' that other manufacturers bury below the black level. That is the reason those cameras score well on the 'tests'. After years of hearing how Canon sensors lacked dynamic range and were noisy, and learning what other manufacturers were baking into their RAW files, I developed my technique to duplicate that baked in processing. And one of the key things is to understand, with Canon RAW files you need to create a true black, black level.

 

The left image you have the Blacks set to a positive number I recommend, NEVER doing that.

Also, without bringing Shadows to +100 and Highlights to -100 you are not maximizing the dynamic range of the image or the camera.



That is just my initial adjustment.  My next step is too usually add some contrast.  On many photos I do bring the Shadows and Highlights to those values.  Sometimes, though, it seems make the image look a little dull if I max out the adjustment.

[EDIT]. I think you may have completely misunderstood my point, BTW.  The left image is th Before.  The right image is the After.  Again, these are the initial adjustments to an image.  What happens next depends upon the image.  

Your explaation of what you do is a bit hard to follow.  I think you left something out of it.

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"I don't rent software. I use Photoshop CS6, ACR 9.8 and Lightroom 6.8 ."
Respected Contributor
Posts: 1,813
Registered: ‎02-26-2015

Re: 6D MKII a disappointment???


Waddizzle wrote:
That is just my initial adjustment.  My next step is too usually add some contrast.  On many photos I do bring the Shadows and Highlights to those values.  Sometimes, though, it seems make the image look a little dull if I max out the adjustment.

[EDIT]. I think you may have completely misunderstood my point, BTW.  The left image is th Before.  The right image is the After.  Again, these are the initial adjustments to an image.  What happens next depends upon the image.  

Your explaation of what you do is a bit hard to follow.  I think you left something out of it.

Yes, I did miss understand the right one was your final one.

 

And processing techniques are hard to explain since there are so many variables.

 

Things  I always do:

 

Blacks are always 'clipped' so you have true black, black level. *1

 

Blacks is always a negative value, Whites is always a positive value.

Blacks and White are always the same offset from zero, i.e. -25 and +25, -35 and +35, -10 and +10, etc

 

I adjust Exposure, Blacks and Whites, so the highlights are not clipped (except in the case of specular highlights on reflective images, or the sun is in the image), and the shadows are clipped (have a true black)

 

This I usually do

 

I usually set Highlights to -100 and Shadows to +100

 

 

 

*1 - 'Nikon currently clips the average read noise at zero, losing some data. Canon includes an offset, so processing by some raw converters can preserve the low end noise, which can be important for averaging multiple frames to detect very low intensity subjects (as in astrophotography).' - Roger Clark, PhD, NASA 

 

 

Honored Contributor
Posts: 5,427
Registered: ‎08-13-2015

Re: 6D MKII a disappointment???

[ Edited ]

I still say that I use a different approach to wind up in the same place.  You say that you always wind with an equal offset from zero for Blacks and Whites.  My left photo shows exactly that.  It shows plus and minus seven as being the final adjustments.  

 

I will point out that this balanced set of adjustments is more the exception, not the rule for me.  The content of the image drives the final set of adjustments.  I don't see how imposing a requirement that the adjustments must always be symmetrical is desireable.  Every image is s different set of circumstances, which should require a different set of adjustments, IMHO.

 

My point is simple.  Lightroom offers a visual display of clipping, just as it does for sharpening.  I think it is pretty rare that an image would be equally at or near saturation for both Blacks and Whites.  They should be independent adjustments.  I use Exposure [and Contrast] to make a symmetrical adjustment.

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"I don't rent software. I use Photoshop CS6, ACR 9.8 and Lightroom 6.8 ."
New Contributor
Posts: 4
Registered: ‎07-30-2017

Re: 6D MKII a disappointment???

I've got a 6D which gets a lot of use. I was hopeful for the upgrade but after seeing the DR issues, I'm gonna hold off. Switching to Fuji seems is really tempting now.

Have you received the 6D2? It would be interesting to see identical RAW files from it and your 6D to compare. From some of the RAW files I've seen from dpreview, it also seems to have banding, which the 6D didn't suffer from.
It is a disappointment though, considering the 80D and 5D4 were on the right track with DR.
I think Canon is trying to push users who are in the know to spend the extra dough for a 5D4 and leave the 6D2 for less informed amateurs, but all they're doing is pissing us off and a lot have switched to Sony or Fuji.
Occasional Contributor
Posts: 18
Registered: ‎07-04-2014

Re: 6D MKII a disappointment???

I have not received the 6D. MKII yet. It arrives tomorrow (Monday). Like you I'm upgrading from my 6D. I don't want too switch to Sony Fuji, etc since I have so many EF and EFS Lens (I still have a T4I as another backup camera and used for some wild life shooting). I don't care about 4K as I have actual video cameras for that. I do agree that "testing" doesn't always tell the whole story. Make sure you read a couple of the earlier posts. We can get carried away sometimes especially with all the buzz is today is about "mirror-less" cameras. Every phtot pod cast I listen to tells you how much better a mirror-less camera is compared to a DSLR and of course thats not the truth.

 

BTW, I have been using, along with LR, On1 Raw's program. I am also messing with Affinity's Affinity Photo especially if Adobe starts to raise the subscription price.

 

At any rate I'll post something once I get the camera and try it out. I'm sure there will be a firmware update shortly after launch.

 

James 

Respected Contributor
Posts: 1,813
Registered: ‎02-26-2015

Re: 6D MKII a disappointment???


Waddizzle wrote:

 

 

I think it is pretty rare that an image would be equally at or near saturation for both Blacks and Whites.  They should be independent adjustments.  I use Exposure [and Contrast] to make a symmetrical adjustment.


I use the Exposure adjustment to make the Black and White adjustments symmetrical. I do this as a way of standardizing the look and exposure of my photos. I was asked to give my processing tips on how to maximize the dynamic range of the Canon cameras that don't perform well on 'the test'. That's my intent, not to get into a contest with you and how you process your photos. You're happy with the dynamic range you get processing your way, then keep doing it your way. As I showed my way works even when having to push the exposure five (5) stops. 

 

The point of all of this was other manufacturers and Canon now on some of their cameras like the 80D and 5D Mk IV bury some of the noise below the black point. Other Canon cameras like the 7D Mk II have a different black point which can on the surface appear to be noisier and have less dynamic range. By not baking in higher black point the camera is actually more useful to a broader range of photographers. Unfortunately, so many people like the poster above talking about going to Fuji, have given credence to 'the test' scores that Canon had to reduce the functionality of RAWs of some of their cameras like the 80D and 5D Mk IV to score well on 'the test'. I can guarantee you that the 6D Mk II sensor and the 5D Mk IV sensor have nearly identical dynamic range. The difference is the 5D Mk IV''s RAW file has been optimized like other manufacturers RAW files to score well on 'the test', and the 6D Mk II's RAW file has been left in its RAWer state so that it will appeal to those photographers that need that like those that do astrophotography

Honored Contributor
Posts: 5,427
Registered: ‎08-13-2015

Re: 6D MKII a disappointment???

TTMartin,

 

No one is trying get into a contest.  But, I do find your approach to be fundamentally flawed by assuming that the distribution of light is always symmetrical.  Once glance at a histogram shows how varied, and asymmetrical, the distribution of light frequencies can be.

The image that you posted from an 80D using your approach was admittedly flawed when using your technique.  I get great images from my 80D.  I was only suggesting a different approach so as not wind up with flawed result, such as the one you posted.

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"I don't rent software. I use Photoshop CS6, ACR 9.8 and Lightroom 6.8 ."
Respected Contributor
Posts: 1,813
Registered: ‎02-26-2015

Re: 6D MKII a disappointment???

[ Edited ]

Waddizzle wrote:

TTMartin,

 

No one is trying get into a contest. 

The image that you posted from an 80D using your approach was admittedly flawed when using your technique.  I get great images from my 80D.  I was only suggesting a different approach so as not wind up with flawed result, such as the one you posted.


I never posted an image from an 80D.

 

The only image I post was a five (5) stop underexposed image from a 7D Mk II that went from this before processing.

 

A00A0056-11.jpg

 

To this after processing

 

Max DR 4.JPG

 

A00A0056-10.jpg

 

I have repeatedly said the technique doesn't work with an 80D because the 80D already bakes the noise clipping black point into the RAW file. Obviously you have missed the entire point to my post. So please just drop it.

New Contributor
Posts: 4
Registered: ‎07-30-2017

Re: 6D MKII a disappointment???

I'm sorry, but I fail to see the relevance of having equal opposite black and white points.
What I normally do to maximise DR is set my desired exposure, drop my highlights and raise my shadows to taste, then hold Shift and double click on both Whites and Blacks to bring them just below clipping point. I then hold alt and pull the blacks slightly further down to bury them and get true black.

And yes, that duck shot would have been far cleaner with an 80D (which is the respective equal improvement everyone was expecting from the 6D2).

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